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Talkbox

2020 Mar 27 10:41:10
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mögen wir fest und entschlossen sein und einen eisernen Willen haben! Dhamma Grüβe aus Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 27 10:40:36
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we be firm and resolute and have an iron will! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 26 20:49:20
Cheav Villa: and they have keep the rule of the Village is safe... I kana also told him that one another foreigner monk already left to the Aural... and he probably walk through the area. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 26 20:47:32
Moritz: Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 26 20:44:17
Cheav Villa: I kana used to talk to the Khmer monk at Wat AngChum who contacted to Akyum with the Police in Korng Pisey District, the monk want to apologize again and again he said he and the Police had no bad will againt Bhante. Because of cannot talk and understand the language...

2020 Mar 26 20:35:58
Cheav Villa: I kana hope that Bhante Johann will be back to Akyum soon. Bhante Johann now might take rest near infront Phnom Srong, where place Bhante had been before. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 26 20:31:00
Cheav Villa: How is Bhante Well being? _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 26 20:25:58
Khemakumara: Upāsakā Moritz

2020 Mar 26 20:21:38
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Mar 26 13:43:15
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 24 17:31:44
Cheav Villa: May all beings be well and Safe. May they be healed.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 24 11:24:10
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 24 04:06:52
Khemakumara: May it be a path- and fruitful uposatha day  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 22 10:32:51
Moritz: Vandami Bhante Ariyadhammika _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 22 09:32:05
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Mar 22 09:21:39
Mohan Gnanathilake:   Mögen wir furchtlos vor Gefahren stehen und mutig alle Hindernisse überwinden! Dhamma Grüβe aus Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 22 09:21:03
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we be fearless in facing dangers and courageously surmount all obstacles! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 22 08:33:26
Moritz: _/\_ Bang Villa

2020 Mar 21 23:08:34
Cheav Villa: May all beings be well and safe. May they be happy. _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Mar 21 23:08:28
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 21 21:33:47
Khemakumara: កតញ្ញូ   kataññū _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 20 20:55:00
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mögen wir jemals ruhig, heiter, gelassen und friedlich sein! Dhamma Grüβe aus Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 20 20:49:17
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we ever be calm, serene, unruffled and peaceful! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 20 10:38:44
Cheav Villa: May all beings be well and safe. May they be happy. _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Mar 17 11:24:51
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 17 07:01:04
Johann: And for those celebrating the Sila day today, a blessed undertaking.

2020 Mar 16 08:31:19
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 16 06:12:53
Johann: A Blessed Siladay this day

2020 Mar 15 07:46:18
Johann: Sadhu,sadhu

2020 Mar 14 23:37:16
Mohan Gnanathilake: Das Leben ist durch Unwissenheit, Verlangen und Festhalten bedingt. Das Leben ist wie ein Rad, das sich ohne Anfang umdreht. Dhamma Grüβe aus Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 14 22:32:02
Mohan Gnanathilake: Life is conditioned by ignorance, craving and clinging. Life is like a wheel, turning around without any beginning. Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 13 23:15:35
Cheav Villa: May all be blessed by the Savage Sangha along the way to Akyum Pagoda from tomorrow.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 13 23:11:28
Cheav Villa: I Kana just tries to breath in and out about 30mins.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 13 06:47:28
Johann: Sadhu

2020 Mar 12 22:29:59
Cheav Villa: I kana tried about 30mins before bed  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 12 21:23:01
Johann: Leave form, sound, smell, taste and touch, right here and now.

2020 Mar 12 21:07:20
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 12 14:46:47
Johann: Every time is the best time to leave home, yes.

2020 Mar 12 13:38:39
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Best Time to know the Vipasana course is still Vipasana course, when the real Vipasana has come.  ^-^ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 12 12:55:07
Johann: Best to make Vipassana when there is no fear of Samsara... *irony*

2020 Mar 12 12:51:48
Johann: Waht about changing the date to one when there is no traffic because their are dying much more people every day...

2020 Mar 12 12:50:27
Johann: Best time when there is no more sickness and death in the world or? Samsara fans.

2020 Mar 12 12:41:57
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz  :) _/\_

2020 Mar 12 12:40:49
Cheav Villa: I kana heard from Bang Puthy, Bhante Indanano wants to change the schedule for Vipasana because of most afraid of spreading Covid_19. :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 12 12:36:56
Cheav Villa: I kana also dont like to sit as long for the Vipassana Course. Vipasana in any sitting,  walking, standing..  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 12 12:31:33
Johann: (Don't tell it further: He is terrible afraid that he possible needs to take part on the Vipassana course at Wat Akyum)

2020 Mar 12 12:28:23
Johann: They hold him in what's app Samsara caught. *bling*

2020 Mar 12 12:25:45
Johann: He is to afraid because people always tell anything further, my person guesses. To much watching Devas  :)

2020 Mar 12 12:23:21
Cheav Villa: I kana had heard of Master Moritz wants to go back soon to enjoy the Samsara  ^-^ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_. As I kana know the Samara is everywhere in this worldily.  :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 12 12:14:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 09 20:10:03
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Mar 09 12:35:33
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 09 12:02:48
Johann: Not only, also for heavens, but if well done of course (Uposatha was held even before the Buddha as well, Nyom)

2020 Mar 09 11:33:51
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Uposatha is for magga and phalas only   :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 09 11:31:36
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 09 10:50:08
Johann: A blessed full moon uposatha, maggas and phalas, all.

2020 Mar 08 10:10:28
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 08 08:52:14
Johann: May all observe a blessed full moon Uposatha, those who tend to do it today.

2020 Mar 07 22:47:14
Johann: We includes all wordlings, Nyom. Something that can be changed.

2020 Mar 07 22:45:33
Mohan Gnanathilake: We are susceptible to the worldly conditions (loka-dhamma). Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2020 Mar 06 12:03:17
You Y:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu Bhante.

2020 Mar 06 09:37:33
You Y: Bhante Johann,  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Could you please share me the dhama that I read yesterday?

2020 Mar 05 20:58:15
Moritz: Probably all coming from the messengers (WhatsApp, Telegram), where I just informed a little. :)

2020 Mar 05 20:56:28
Johann: 4 guests already, so nothing to worry, Brah google and his host will follow as long be traceable.

2020 Mar 05 20:52:41
Moritz: Yes, they may come back when the new address is indexed by a search engine.

2020 Mar 05 20:48:50
Johann: Nyom, Nyom. Robots and google may not follow redirects

2020 Mar 05 20:41:44
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Mar 05 20:41:28
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 05 20:38:20
Moritz: 0 guests here - unusual sight :-)

2020 Mar 05 20:38:07
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Mar 05 20:38:02
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 04 11:49:51
Johann: Nyom

2020 Mar 04 10:39:44
Danilo: Bhante _/\_

2020 Mar 02 14:02:25
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 02 12:56:34
Johann: May those celebrating it today spend a blessed day as well

2020 Mar 01 21:34:54
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Mar 01 06:55:13
Johann: A blessed Sila-Day all those who undertake it today.

2020 Feb 29 22:31:54
Mohan Gnanathilake: The eight worldly conditions (loka-dhamma) obsess the world. The world revolves around the eight worldly conditions (loka-dhamma).

2020 Feb 22 20:44:08
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Feb 22 18:45:07
Johann: May all spend a blessed Uposatha, those holding it today and those tomorrow, or both

2020 Feb 19 12:31:58
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2020 Feb 19 12:05:18
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Feb 18 21:27:07
Johann: Nyom

2020 Feb 18 21:02:57
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Feb 18 09:12:06
Danilo: Bhante Johann _/\_

2020 Feb 18 09:10:31
Johann: Nyom Danilo

2020 Feb 16 22:24:43
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Feb 16 10:54:04
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Feb 16 06:43:32
Johann: A blessed Sila day all today, observing the Uposatha Silas

2020 Feb 15 22:34:40
Danilo: Bhante _/\_

2020 Feb 15 22:31:22
Johann: Nyom Danilo

2020 Feb 15 14:16:33
Cheav Villa:  : *thumb* _/\_

2020 Feb 15 13:51:34
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Feb 12 23:36:22
Moritz: Chom reap leah, good night _/\_

2020 Feb 12 23:04:39
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Feb 12 23:04:24
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Feb 12 23:03:33
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Feb 12 22:57:44
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Feb 10 18:34:34
Johann: Nyom

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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Some talks on duty, debt, respect, gratitude and generosity: joy in  (Read 1300 times)

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Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
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  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

  _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community  _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

Quote from: asked by B. Tjoa on BSE
Am I feeling pity or compassion?

I'm confused. The 50+ year old nanny whom I hired to take care of my firstborn has just resigned a week ago. Before she left, I willingly gave her about 25% more than the salary we agreed upon. I also bought her some nice gifts for the lunar new year. I even told her to contact me if someday she need any (financial) help and not to tell anyone, including my wife. Until now, I'm still hoping she would contact me (not that I wish her to be in bad financial situation) because I really want to lighten her financial burden. So my two questions are: 1) am I feeling pity or compassion? I really want to help her more as she has take care of my baby so well. 2) is this an attachment? Sorry for my lack of basic understanding of Buddhism. Thank you. Btw, I'm 34




B. Tjoa,

It's good to try to help, it's paise-worthy to feel not only obligated, and it's also a sign of integrity to be willing to pay back and be not in debt. Thoughts, doing and effort, even physical, by speech and body, doing what ever possible, all of that is skillful.

It's how ever not in ones sphere in how far another might receive gifts, receive repayments. Sometime one can do what ever he/she might be able, but another is either incapable or unwilling to take.

That's then the point where one needs to let go, or better do not hold on that strong. Beings are owner of their kamma (deeds), so there is no way to what others anything to do and any gain is a result of previous or present deeds at least.

So at a point it's good to not only switch to mudita (having joy with what good another has done) but also metta (release with a wish of goodwill).

It's not wrong to forward goodness to others and also a way to solve ones obligation and to stay open in all directions with ones generosity and open hands in regard of needs and wishes of others.

Only one who has reveived goodness, has become aware of what sacrify means and that they are done by others, is not only capable to develope goodness him/her self but also to become a grateful person.

At least, don't forget, real teacher and people of goodness do not take any rewards but let you only one way open to "pay" off your debts, and this is by becoming a great person by your self, infect others in same way and make not only yourself but also others part of another economy, that of giving and letting go, leading to heaven and beyound.

Mudita

For having gotten a good "The Lessons of Gratitude "

Blessed if not and not becoming a (self-called) modern or western Buddhist who actually use Dhamma only to deny their duties and waste their past merits, incapable of goodnesz, gratitute, generosity and becoming people a integrity, striving after wrong or pseudo liberalism and dwell in hypocracy. Something one should always be careful not to fall into since there is less liberating in becoming a careless consumer of past done merits. Rejoice with your good qualities and that of others and try to stay as often by wishes to repeat good mind states, for that is the case of gaining right release by right concentration caused by right lack of remorse , fundemental debtlessness .

 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa


"And what is the treasure of generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called the treasure of generosity.

Only a person seeking for ways to do good will find possibilities, only of what is nurished an improved will grow and increase and as the Buddha often told, it's seldom to have goid possibilities, so one should be quick in actions of good deeds and like Nissaya search after them, for such is the cause to Upanissaya and to come near the path of the Noble Ones, step by step.

One is not wise if just waiting of what old merits and possibilities come along and eat them just away. Yet of course one can also not makes one good deeds undone and not to ripe, so their is no fault in receiving good and clean gifts of others on the way. Steady, in ways of giving and receiving, increase the qualities of "food" up to heavenly and food for beyound of all burdens of exchange.

Then, when the tanks is really empty , that is where the Buddha told householders, having done the highest duties, one may seek seclusion and use the release for working on fruits beyound obligation.

For a person of integrity possibilities of fulfilling as well as chances to give at fist place are a source of joy, having conviction or even know the results of a joyful and open handed mind all time prepared to give and let go. Such a person never lacks on anything needed and conductive. Give it a try to be shameless in regard of doing skillful all the time, by thought, speech and deeds, where ever be. Devotion toward the proper is not a burden but right means to release.

Anumodana!

(previous source of answer )



What is the proper way to foster generosity and gratitude?

I can see how generosity and gratitude are important as means to foster right resolve. But what if someone do good things sometimes due a sense of obligation, but also cause much harm to you? For example, this mother . Given that our resources and gains are limited, it is not much better to support the virtuous one rather than the unvirtuous?

And in the case of supporting the unvirtuous and unwise, how this would not contradict others teachings like "do not associate with fools " and "give a gift in a proper time "? (a unwise person would surely use a material gift unwisely causing harm for himself/herself and others).


Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Monks, these two people are hard to find in the world. Which two? The one who is first to do a kindness, and the one who is grateful for a kindness done and feels obligated to repay it. These two people are hard to find in the world."
Quote from: ...and more on lessons of gratitude

Danilo, your observations are totally right in regard one has already a broader view and the question is a good and useful one to understand things better. But & Because: Yet most people are not even able to fullfil their duties (break silas and do not take what is not give, or pay the price, hold to promises) and stay to contracts (virtue) in relation of sensuallity (material things and reverence). The next higher stage then is toward more selfless giving of material things. So even if most made in this way, it's useless to build a tower on a muddy baseless place and one needs to start where the mud is places, do the hard and "dirty", painful job, first.

Above the first gods (those giving birth, parents), if those are recognised, one can walk on to the higher goods, , those introducing, nurishing this the four needs (food, shelter, cloth, medicine), those teaching, leading to heaven and then even to liberation.

If the base is not done, e.g. not even obligation as reward of sensuality is recognices and duties payed off, if even parents are not put on the right scale, there is no way to ever develope that much freedom to be able to interact and receive on a higher scale. One makes nothing but more and more debts on this way, in all directions, even if feeling released by certain thought constructs.

It's maybe importand to understand that parents can aside of being the first gods be also the higherst. Some are that gifted, some even recognice it.

The issue of giving and the issue of duties (sila) which also may include giving is not that easy understood. Sometimes giving is a deal for expected gain, sometimes a required obligation for a relation (deal), sometime a payment for release seldom really generosity and it is gain and again worthy to note that the treasure of real generosity is only gained by a person of integrity, e.g. comes after perfection of silas.

Most not even managed in regard of giving at large plays all in the section of sila, starting from proper veneration to service and assistance.

What the proper places for generosity are, for all being, regardless of relation, nice or bad, is mentioned in timely giving and is of course always excelled by Noble Ones and those train for it.

It's very difficult to make western or better modern people basics (at least right view) understandable because they are not at all used to generosity, feelings of obligation, gratitude... but raised in a society, if good, where all has a to be payed marked price, and no, really no, neither at home, nor at school, good basic conducts are trained.

For defilements even a pleasure to here that giving to immoral people is not conductive, yet they would not include the own person when making their greedy excuses to deny even obligations.

May person once had a longer discussion with a typical western Buddhist and it might be of use, even the place itself there is not one to advice for a good. The topics discussion and links may explain certain basics and misunderstandings: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "

To understand guṇā (best transated as "giver" or "benefactor") here are also some explaining. Usually translated as goodness or "people of goodness", it's meaning starts by the sense organs and is then used for goodness making real sense and beyound: guṇā គុណ - Gönner, Verbindubg/Band | benefactor, string/bound (just in German, if one like to translate, feel given)

It's impossible to walk a spiritual way if not having placed all benefactors on the right place in the heart at a matter that even most modern or western monks are not able to get fixed. At least it's underlying right view and becoming a person of integrity, either on faith, Dhamma or by entering the stream to get really ride of macchariya which only Noble ones, but right from the beginning are free from. If that and gratitude is still a problem, don't even think on Jhanas or any attainments: impossible.

Since those basic topics are merely tabu and not welcome at all, leading even most to anger and aversion, the so called buddhist community in the west and modern world is merely just a wellness and trade branch and not really a source of real attainments at all, does not even have any basic positiv effects in normal live and sociaty which can be easy observed everywhere.

But back to a many helpful "classification" of worthyness in regard of people or relations, of course not really possible to distinguished in a very firm way, but merely an orientation and a source to think and reflect more about it:

 
Quote
A raw ranking based on it, in regard of worthy (general, can differ in cases aside of Noble Ones):
  • Ordinary beings
  • Ordinary people
  • Ordinary beings hungry, lacking existencial needs
  • Normal friends and wordily fellows
  • Normal elders


People of goodness:
  • Wordily teachers
  • Ones family and relatives
  • Ones first goods, parents
  • People keeping 5 precepts
  • People keeping 8 pr.
  • People keeping 10 precepts
  • Homeless 10 precepts
  • Samanera
  • Young Bhikkhu
  • Full Bhikkhu
  • Thera
  • Maha Thera


Ecxeled by innwardly qualities, case by case:
  • wordlings
  • Layperson following the training (still enjoys sensuality)
  • Recluse/monastic following the training (still enjoying sensual pleasure)
  • Layperson living the wholly life in full, following the Arahats
  • Recluse/monastic living the wholly live full, following the Arahats
  • Noble One 1. Path winner
  • Fruit Winner..2, 3, 4 Patg winner
  • Arahat
  • Buddha

In regard of Noble Ones, Recluse excels Lay person.

At least, not as a demand or just to belittle but as a matter of generosity and compassion, Danilo, so that you may have more ease and more doors to good places open in future, to train youself in good conduct, is actually not respectfull, not praisworthy and possible for the most cases a hard hindrance to ask indirect, without reverence and yes of course in certain equal manner. So for normal and strict holding on secure ways, Danilo might not only get any useful answer but also be known, like many, as someone with less virtues not at all worthy of gifts. But again, that is just for you and others grow, being aware that good conduct and proper behaviour is something unknown an utopistic in the modern and internet realms.

One might feel free to go into the topic even deeper or to train here , on a given and more proper place. At least most might be really wasted giving, as mentioned in the question, yet for those possible to get healed still.

How to foster generosity and gratitude?
  • Again and formost: association with people of integrity and generosity, gratefull people, people rejocing in deeds of giving and devotion, able to share merits and encourage to such and by avoiding places and people not used to, the usuall "cool" ones, like poison.
  • Rendering service and assistance in monasteries, for monks, for elders, teacher, virtuous. (e.g. practice Silas and pay obligations proper back or even without hope of reward)
  • Practice generosity where ever there is a possibility.
  • Learn to great, adress, pay respect and good verbal and bodily conduct and use it everywhere, whether usual or not (it also helps to cut of "enemies" for prosperty)
  • Get used and train youself in all of the ten kinds of merit-making .
     
  • Stick to right view, even it goes against all grains and let it be adviser for your daily action rather to let your defilements make use of transcend right view while still living next a punch of fetters and a refrigerator.

 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart . [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is how one is made pure in three ways by mental action."

Once, again, right view is adopted by faith, certain vision or even clear seen and gained, generosity, after virtue and gratitude proper and right placed is no more a matter at all. At this point, not out of reason, one is incapable to do grave, even deliberated misconduct and behave improper.

May it be for release and ease, who ever might be capable to take, make use and understand.

And be carefull, it's not free and not without strings and one might be already hardly caught, with no chance to fall back any more!
 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Has done much

"Bhikkhus, these three persons have done much to a person. Which three? Bhikkhus, the person gone to whom this person takes refuge in the Enlightenment, in the Teaching and the Community of bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, the person gone to whom this person knows as it really is, this is unpleasant, this is the arising of unpleasantness, this is the cessation of unpleasantness and this is the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness.

"Again, bhikkhus, the person gone to whom, this person destroys desires, releases the mind and released through wisdom, here and now abides having realized. Bhikkhus, these three persons have done much to this person.

"Bhikkhus, it is not possible that these three persons could be thoroughly repaid with gratitude, by this person revering him, attending on him, clasping hands towards him and honouring him with robes, morsel food, dwellings and medicinal requisites."
Quote from: Bahukārasuttaṃ

Of course very useful and in same value Utopia: Opening the Door to the Dhamma: Respect in Buddhist Thought & Practice

The orderline duties » sila » generosity ... from the gross to the fine, can btw. be also traced likewise, as tried to point out at the beginning, in the Mangala Sutta and at each level of fullfilment or able to renounce certain relation and it's benefits, debts are growing void and giving is step by step growing to real generosity and compassion. Once a state around the stanca 6. and 7 is reached, no more falling back will accur for one.

Anumodana!

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

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Ven. Johann, I have read your answer and the thread in freesangha.com mentioned in it. A few doubts pop up.

Quote from: Samana Johann in BSE
worthy to note that the treasure of real generosity is only gained by a person of integrity, e.g. comes after perfection of silas
Quote from: francis in freesangha.com
Giving in this unencumbered way loosens the grip of greed and helps to develop non-attachment. Such giving also develops virtue and leads naturally to the next perfection, morality (sila).’
Quote from: Samana Johann in freesangha.com
Perfect, not different, Fancis

These statements seems to contradict each other. Is really important a strict order of what perfection comes first (sila before dana or dana before sila ?) or the order is merely a recommendation?


Quote from: Abhidhamma in daily life
Those Who Can Do Without Dana

There is a class of people who do not need to perform deeds of charity. They are the great yogis who strive earnestly to escape from samsara in the present existence. They are occupied full time in samatha and vipassana work. If they spend their time in the performance of Dana, it will only be a waster of time and effort. Dana is not necessary for them as they are fully intent on gaining liberation very soon, they must zealously practice meditation day and night. Once a Bhikkhu from Madalay who was always eager to perform Dana came to practice meditation under the guidance of Maha Gandhron Sayadaw who was our Preceptor. One morning the Sayadaw saw the Bhikkhu gathering flowers to offer the Buddha. The Sayadaw admonished the Bhikkhu saying, 'While undertaking meditation practices, be intent only on your practice, you may offer flowers later on."

This part seems to dispense the importance of dana declaring that meditation is enough as long as the practioner disposes of full time to meditate. Is this really correct? What about the gradual training and the other factors of Eightfold Noble Path?


Quote from: Samana Johann in BSE
At least, not as a demand or just to belittle but as a matter of generosity and compassion, Danilo, so that you may have more ease and more doors to good places open in future, to train youself in good conduct, is actually not respectfull, not praisworthy and possible for the most cases a hard hindrance to ask indirect, without reverence and yes of course in certain equal manner. So for normal and strict holding on secure ways, Danilo might not only get any useful answer but also be known, like many, as someone with less virtues not at all worthy of gifts.

I find this part a bit confusing. Not sure if I got it right.
Ven. Johann mean that is not praisworthy if I would be so strict regarding to whom should be worthy of my generosity (worrying about the amount of merit I would gain). But it would be praisworthy practice generosity undiscriminately and spontaneously without aiming the amount of merit to be gain.
Am I understood it correctly?

Offline Johann

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Sadhu for asking further to possible remove doubt and gain ease, Nyom Danilo .

Ven. Johann, I have read your answer and the thread in freesangha.com mentioned in it. A few doubts pop up.

Quote from: Samana Johann in BSE
worthy to note that the treasure of real generosity is only gained by a person of integrity, e.g. comes after perfection of silas
Quote from: francis in freesangha.com
Giving in this unencumbered way loosens the grip of greed and helps to develop non-attachment. Such giving also develops virtue and leads naturally to the next perfection, morality (sila).’
Quote from: Samana Johann in freesangha.com
Perfect, not different, Fancis

These statements seems to contradict each other. Is really important a strict order of what perfection comes first (sila before dana or dana before sila ?) or the order is merely a recommendation?

The condratiction lies in the bad pointed out view. One thing is the usual training the other results.
Althought the training usually is suggested by Dāna » Sīla » ... the actually perfection of generosity is only firm one the stream is gained. Gaining the Stream means to have completed the virture - section and an attribute of all eight Noble persons is the lack of maccharīa, stinginess , including ingratitude (the root of stinginess). Yet at the "same" time the abounding of the fetter of stinginess is required to possible gain jhana, paths or fruits. When the Buddha makes accounts on treasures , generosity cames always after virtue, meaning a person not having gained "perfect" virtue is not really generous but bears in certain amount a certain trade/exchance in mind when giving. This way of mentioning can also be seen in Devatanussati , where also sila is mentioned before dana.
If remembering the supra mundane depending origin , sometimes the starter on the chain is confidence, sometime virtue, meaning all "freedom of remorse. Today many wonder how it was possible that for example a person, having gained confidence and only payed respect at its perfection, or giving flowers, had gained path. It all comes to the point where the Aggregates are abound, nothing is hold on as own, at this stage of mind, having proper attention, path and fruit can be gained.
So it's actually impossible to have "perfect" virtue but still stingy and vizi versa. Both, generosity and virtue, are trained outwardly at the beginning and both need each other to be clean.

While simply Generosity, which is better called trade, might lead to objected gain and refined existences, generosity of the real virtuose has no object of gain but simply delights in getting lightened of things having proper gained or be given, so there is no more dept or duty for relation behind, when acting generously.

That generosity alone is somehow like buying you free for a while, is the reason why wise always push torward moral at first place, like the nice simile of Ven. Ajahn Chah:

Quote
An Upside-down Basin

Once we've abandoned doing evil, then even when we make merit only a bit at a time, there's still hope that our perfections will grow full. Like a basin set upright out in the open: Even if rain falls only a drop at a time, there's a chance that the basin will get full.

But if we make merit without abandoning evil, it's like putting a basin upside-down out in the open. When the rain falls it still lands on the bottom of the basin, but on the outside bottom, not on the inside. There's no way the water will fill the basin.

He is/has been of course a teacher able to teach those having gained path, further.

My person hopes that this words in regard of the abounding of maccharia, as a matter of completed virtue , gives more clear perspectives, even can be found and traced by oneself here and now in giving it simply a try and look.

Quote from: Abhidhamma in daily life
Those Who Can Do Without Dana

There is a class of people who do not need to perform deeds of charity. They are the great yogis who strive earnestly to escape from samsara in the present existence. They are occupied full time in samatha and vipassana work. If they spend their time in the performance of Dana, it will only be a waster of time and effort. Dana is not necessary for them as they are fully intent on gaining liberation very soon, they must zealously practice meditation day and night. Once a Bhikkhu from Madalay who was always eager to perform Dana came to practice meditation under the guidance of Maha Gandhron Sayadaw who was our Preceptor. One morning the Sayadaw saw the Bhikkhu gathering flowers to offer the Buddha. The Sayadaw admonished the Bhikkhu saying, 'While undertaking meditation practices, be intent only on your practice, you may offer flowers later on."

This part seems to dispense the importance of dana declaring that meditation is enough as long as the practioner disposes of full time to meditate. Is this really correct? What about the gradual training and the other factors of Eightfold Noble Path?
If really, yes. Someone dwelling heedful, meaning aside of really necessary (within right livelyhood: e.g. one living on given) doing Jhana has no need and duty toward giving outwardly. One doing not the duties of an almreceiver needs to do Dana, in what ever way, to fall not strong into debts and lose all merits (means to gain joy with existences). That is the reason why often monks are very "social" and generous  ^-^, becoming step by step the slaves of their supporter... if not carefull. Some are simply not able yet to train in higher virtue, concentration and insight, and need to do a lot of Dana.
To answer in regard of lay people generally: Althought it is broadly understood so that it might be possible to practice without Dana as yet not on the highest livelihood, it's total impossible. Even 98%of monks are not really able to do without generosity, since often enough receive or take more willingly as needed. May it by accumulation of knowledge by not perfect means, for example, they need to share and teach their wealth in spiritual materials. So as long as there is something not needed carried, one needs to share to be able to carry it on.

That's a really importand and grave misunderstood matter, or better a dangerous zone of a lot of demerits and waste away of old. It's mostly justifyied by "there is no worthy" or even "I am actually more worthy, giving would be demeritiouse".

Quote from: Samana Johann in BSE
At least, not as a demand or just to belittle but as a matter of generosity and compassion, Danilo, so that you may have more ease and more doors to good places open in future, to train youself in good conduct, is actually not respectfull, not praisworthy and possible for the most cases a hard hindrance to ask indirect, without reverence and yes of course in certain equal manner. So for normal and strict holding on secure ways, Danilo might not only get any useful answer but also be known, like many, as someone with less virtues not at all worthy of gifts.

I find this part a bit confusing. Not sure if I got it right.
Ven. Johann mean that is not praisworthy if I would be so strict regarding to whom should be worthy of my generosity (worrying about the amount of merit I would gain). But it would be praisworthy practice generosity undiscriminately and spontaneously without aiming the amount of merit to be gain.
Am I understood it correctly?

Not sure if this "soft" places rebuke was seen. My person saw that Nyom placed wise questions, mature questions, an thought to warn him not to fall into internets usual respectless ways, asking the crowd and demanding or hoping that a wise burdens himself by giving the requested: in sort, its not of good conduct to ask not direct but others while the origin is even in reach or present. That's disrespectful, yet sadly usual everywhere on internet. It's ok to ask into the group of equal, to find common opinion but if seeking seriouse advice, one should proper approach.

Wise would really not easy enter the normal zones on internet and actually, if thinking on rules even Bhikkhus would be bound, nearly impossible to ever meet wise ones. So inregard of: "may Danilo have most ease to access other worlds of real benefit", it was said, assuming that he understands and regards the "sharp" advice.

The way Danilo does here and now, is actually good, which point again to a circumstances that his nature is actually of better kind but by to much association with improper usuals adopted to "survive" in that kind of enviroment.

Atma (my person) guesses that Danilo appreciates advices even if very direct, of what is my persons kind (...of generosity and less care of win or lose personally in this regard) to bring it also into the topic of the further questions here.

May Nyom Danilo have enough patient and "forgiviness" with especially language and ways, so that he might be able to receive and possible dig further.

My person ends will end here for now, giving space for prove and reflections.

Anumodana
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 11:52:45 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

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If really, yes. Someone dwelling heedful, meaning aside of really necessary (within right livelyhood: e.g. one living on given) doing Jhana has no need and duty toward giving outwardly. One doing not the duties of an almreceiver needs to do Dana, in what ever way, to fall not strong into debts and lose all merits (means to gain joy with existences). That is the reason why often monks are very "social" and generous  ^-^, becoming step by step the slaves of their supporter... if not carefull. Some are simply not able yet to train in higher virtue, concentration and insight, and need to do a lot of Dana.
To answer in regard of lay people generally: Althought it is broadly understood so that it might be possible to practice without Dana as yet not on the highest livelihood, it's total impossible. Even 98%of monks are not really able to do without generosity, since often enough receive or take more willingly as needed. May it by accumulation of knowledge by not perfect means, for example, they need to share and teach their wealth in spiritual materials. So as long as there is something not needed carried, one needs to share to be able to carry it on.

That's a really importand and grave misunderstood matter, or better a dangerous zone of a lot of demerits and waste away of old. It's mostly justifyied by "there is no worthy" or even "I am actually more worthy, giving would be demeritiouse".

So the intention to donate counterbalance the tendency to cling which is created by volition and delight of consume. If one is always heedful, there is nothing to consume (unwise attention), thus no defilement will ever arise. Isn't this by itself full awakening?


Not sure if this "soft" places rebuke was seen. My person saw that Nyom placed wise questions, mature questions, an thought to warn him not to fall into internets usual respectless ways, asking the crowd and demanding or hoping that a wise burdens himself by giving the requested: in sort, its not of good conduct to ask not direct but others while the origin is even in reach or present. That's disrespectful, yet sadly usual everywhere on internet. It's ok to ask into the group of equal, to find common opinion but if seeking seriouse advice, one should proper approach.

Wise would really not easy enter the normal zones on internet and actually, if thinking on rules even Bhikkhus would be bound, nearly impossible to ever meet wise ones. So inregard of: "may Danilo have most ease to access other worlds of real benefit", it was said, assuming that he understands and regards the "sharp" advice.

The way Danilo does here and now, is actually good, which point again to a circumstances that his nature is actually of better kind but by to much association with improper usuals adopted to "survive" in that kind of enviroment.

Atma (my person) guesses that Danilo appreciates advices even if very direct, of what is my persons kind (...of generosity and less care of win or lose personally in this regard) to bring it also into the topic of the further questions here.

May Nyom Danilo have enough patient and "forgiviness" with especially language and ways, so that he might be able to receive and possible dig further.

My person ends will end here for now, giving space for prove and reflections.

Anumodana

I will surely take the advice in consideration.  _/\_
But, I thought it was better to post the question in BSE because the number of accesses there is much higher than sangham.net, thus much more people would benefit reading the answers (especially regarding such topic like generosity, virtue and make merits which is neglected in the west as Ven. Johann already mentioned many times).

 _/\_

Offline Danilo

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by the way, what is "perfect virtue"?

 _/\_

Offline Johann

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If really, yes. Someone dwelling heedful, meaning aside of really necessary (within right livelyhood: e.g. one living on given) doing Jhana has no need and duty toward giving outwardly. One doing not the duties of an almreceiver needs to do Dana, in what ever way, to fall not strong into debts and lose all merits (means to gain joy with existences). That is the reason why often monks are very "social" and generous  ^-^, becoming step by step the slaves of their supporter... if not carefull. Some are simply not able yet to train in higher virtue, concentration and insight, and need to do a lot of Dana.
To answer in regard of lay people generally: Althought it is broadly understood so that it might be possible to practice without Dana as yet not on the highest livelihood, it's total impossible. Even 98%of monks are not really able to do without generosity, since often enough receive or take more willingly as needed. May it by accumulation of knowledge by not perfect means, for example, they need to share and teach their wealth in spiritual materials. So as long as there is something not needed carried, one needs to share to be able to carry it on.

That's a really importand and grave misunderstood matter, or better a dangerous zone of a lot of demerits and waste away of old. It's mostly justifyied by "there is no worthy" or even "I am actually more worthy, giving would be demeritiouse".

So the intention to donate counterbalance the tendency to cling which is created by volition and delight of consume. If one is always heedful, there is nothing to consume (unwise attention), thus no defilement will ever arise. Isn't this by itself full awakening?

It can and do go that far and that's why one should try and observe and not again and again search for security before walking about. Once there is a vision and doubt is abound, go for it. It's not that far away, Nyom Danilo . Do not consider fruits one convition in the path, and the path is that of Noble ones, the talk here is not how to find the path, standing direct before it.
Having done the job to come till here is seldom, so don't wait for another occation of arising.

Not sure if this "soft" places rebuke was seen. My person saw that Nyom placed wise questions, mature questions, an thought to warn him not to fall into internets usual respectless ways, asking the crowd and demanding or hoping that a wise burdens himself by giving the requested: in sort, its not of good conduct to ask not direct but others while the origin is even in reach or present. That's disrespectful, yet sadly usual everywhere on internet. It's ok to ask into the group of equal, to find common opinion but if seeking seriouse advice, one should proper approach.

Wise would really not easy enter the normal zones on internet and actually, if thinking on rules even Bhikkhus would be bound, nearly impossible to ever meet wise ones. So inregard of: "may Danilo have most ease to access other worlds of real benefit", it was said, assuming that he understands and regards the "sharp" advice.

The way Danilo does here and now, is actually good, which point again to a circumstances that his nature is actually of better kind but by to much association with improper usuals adopted to "survive" in that kind of enviroment.

Atma (my person) guesses that Danilo appreciates advices even if very direct, of what is my persons kind (...of generosity and less care of win or lose personally in this regard) to bring it also into the topic of the further questions here.

May Nyom Danilo have enough patient and "forgiviness" with especially language and ways, so that he might be able to receive and possible dig further.

My person ends will end here for now, giving space for prove and reflections.

Anumodana

I will surely take the advice in consideration.  _/\_
But, I thought it was better to post the question in BSE because the number of accesses there is much higher than sangham.net, thus much more people would benefit reading the answers (especially regarding such topic like generosity, virtue and make merits which is neglected in the west as Ven. Johann already mentioned many times).

 _/\_

One is given and welcome to share everything either out of compassion or having still duties in regard of uphoold relations but it's not suggested to use it for trade and exchange. How ever it may promote ones or others release and cause right gained joy. My person walks very often on the edge to make the proper times (object) of giving understood and how to not become a slave of ones attachments, holding on, which has no benefit for anybody. At least it's hurtful for a prisoner to get told about outside when merely not really able to escape. Beings have to work out their liberality by them selves and that is why it's only fruitful if Respect, Confidence and Patient are present. As for one seeking joy in generosity he might learn soon that's not so easy to find occasion to do. Seek always after those in front first and fullfil the duties on the track toward those left, right and behind to have a pleasant walk all the time, in proper amount, no need to sacrify the gain of release since there is no higher object be found then this to justify it.

Become firm and real liberal yourself, your radiance will call after those able to see and with certain upanissaya to your person and way. No need and benefit of making debts to stay bound in fear of the unbound, Nyom Danilo.

Just saw:

by the way, what is "perfect virtue"?

 _/\_


Maybe good to dedicate a new tread for it and simply try to right here and now to see.

My person will end here and may be for a while or some hours absent, of course even not return, to make his quest for alms or just give possibilities here.

Does not mean to "relax" meanwhile but hold on skillful states while maybe lesser entertained, Nyom Danilo.

* Johann btw. , good and proper if giving the gift of showing face , of course no demand. There are so many small things oft regarded as not so importand but actually very gross things in training and see perfect virtue. It goes right to Vipassana, just that "stuff". Not that easy, the considered small stuff. Much joy out of it, now being somehow in the cave of the lions who are after your defilements and "desire" realy much, much more they could if just standing behind the walls and only watch and ponder.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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