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Topic Summary

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: March 13, 2020, 03:12:30 PM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

There arose recently a question on another place, Nyom gvg , which might be good to consider here as well, since wisdom should always be put above "right and wrong":

Quote from: Johann

Quote from: Erik Kaplun on BSE
Should any monastic be considered a noble one?

Should every monastic unconditionally be considered a noble one, and treated as such, to abstain from bad kamma at the very least? or are lay people, and other monastics, free to use personal judgement based on the personal qualities, or lack thereof, of a given monastic?

If the latter, then am I free to verbally express my concern/blame, without producing excessively bad kamma? For example due to not agreeing with the way the Dhamma is presented, or timing thereof, or not agreeing with the arrogant attitude of the monk, or pointing out flaws in the behavior/methods/views of that monk?

Taken that a good friend would give you advices to abstain from things which could harm you or of bad results, what advices would you give, being in such a possition, knowing that cause and effect isn't a democratical thing, or a "liberal"? Would you send him in an easy fatal lost "war" to win his favor, give into possible defilements?

While it is a very seldom gift of being well-wished adviced, even if disliking, think on you as a child and your parents, it's not something you are obligated to and so worthy to think clear why wishing to do, honest.

Just a sample, not to present something, but to have a possibility to think maybe more from outside, as life actually runs different as thought, as just one to give: Assimilating of Bhante Samahita's death, decay of beloved

For on ordinary person it's really hard to keep preoccupations, feeling... separated, not to speak of understanding of what possible just known from far.

So it's really not an easy issue if serious wishing to build up Nissay with those headed toward liberation, not even if after good, firm, intellectual understanding.

May all take care and often remember their parents hardship to even letting have grown till here.

For all that reason, since the old, people are adviced to focus their dedications toward the Sangha and others then the most think, the Buddha gave also to householders advices of how to react on "troublesome" monks, since thinks aren't for sure! And the Buddha knew his Pappenheimer:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
...Anāthapiṇḍika the householder heard that, “They say that the Kosambī monks, quarrelsome, makers of strife, makers of disputes, makers of rumors, makers of issues in the Saṅgha, are coming to Sāvatthī.”

Then Anāthapiṇḍika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, “Lord, they say that the Kosambī monks, quarrelsome, makers of strife, makers of disputes, makers of rumors, makers of issues in the Saṅgha, are coming to Sāvatthī. How am I to behave with regard to these monks?”...The Discussion of the Eighteen Grounds
Quote from: The Discussion of the Eighteen Grounds

Old lay people in tradition countries, wouldn't advice or support one, nearly generally, especially if having been monks, but of course they had no google and suttacentral-monks, which might be useful or will most eternal cut of the stream of those rest heading already outward. So again, right critic leads to heaven (even if just by ones thought) and wrong likewise to hell. So the proverbs of binding a knot into your tongue aren't out of reason, one can be sure, and for good deeds one does not need to become a "killer", not even one who struggles outwardly long. In both directions, and the rest stays open for real compassion and seldom left paramis one could have.

And to add an important issue, kamma, and that's what the most here is about, doesn't care whether you then tell wrong just your friend, spread it secretly or anonymously... a larg bypass downstairs as well, by especially "smart".

There should be no issue better to simply direct the case direct, and if no "success", one can deside to left another off for one self, not even just at least.

(Note that this isn't given for trade, exchange, stacks or what ever binds, but for freedom from it.)

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: March 13, 2020, 01:40:06 PM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Quote from: gvg on March 13, 2020, 11:41:48 AM

So, this story answer your question when you asked me if I was not afraid of criticizing a monk because you also didn't like it to be criticized by a lay person.

And this, just to address it, would be a total wrong perception, for one who dislikes critic such is indeed a fool (for a Bhikkhu it would be an offence if disrespecting critic by lay people). And Nyom has in no way to fear any disadvantages from my persons side, whether her acting was actually foolish or not. Atma isn't capable to bear things like even ill-will and beings do wrong simply out of not-knowing of which they wouldn't if they know. Nevertheless, such wouldn't not protect from kammic consequences and that is the most important matter here: investigating what actually dives one and not out of reason the topic is called "Assimilating of Bhante Samahita's death, decay of beloved" since such, if done wrong, leads only to more suffering and to really foolish actions.

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: March 13, 2020, 12:46:25 PM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Good then, and no problem the delay (what would come was already clear).

So out of compassion and not a sample to follow, as well, here:

Let my person ask now for Nyom gvg s next meeting with her trusted Monks:

* whether the senior Bhikkhus, in the case my person would be a Bhikkhu, did a transgression in as far as they told about a fault of another Bhikkhu toward a lay person, unless they are not given by the Sangha to do so

* whether they did even a more grave transgression, in the case the younger Monk isn't a "Bhikkhu".

* whether intention plays a role in regard of the transgression.

* whether it's given to talk with woman on such matters in even extended form, possible alone.

* What the kammical consequences for someone would be who criticises an even Noble Fellow (or monk) possible wrongly.

Then, as they lead Nyom right into the sphere of hell (as my person has no contact of this gain-desiring monks, doing favours for angry laywoman), ask them about the results if criticising wrongly, or even criticising (as such could be the case as well) a Noble One. For it is simply foolish and how ever old they might be, the Venerables have to be called fools, to tell a lay person that there is nothing wrong in criticising a monk, categorically.

As told already, there is nothing more dangerous as to associate with fools.

And then let my person add that an undertaking of wishing to split the Sangha, although just as a lay person, if touching case Noble ones, could also easy lead to a downfall transgression, one of the six kammas which lead straight to hell and hinder from what ever attaining upwardly in this existence. That was told for the case in which one might not have asked honestly but with certain deceitful intentions and then carries things in between.

So again, it's total foolish to believe that critic is bad and praise is good, but depends on sacca. Hopefully Nyom can see the hypotactic within all that and may she gives what ever good causes to get never in association with fools.

And yes, it's important to reflect that there are monks who can read mind and know actually well what will be next, is hidden, can be changed at this time, in this circumstances.

At least, best Greetings to the Venerables and good to tell them, that if letting go of desire for gain, it's easier to associate with monks, doesn't need improper dependency and association with lay people and would be not only for the own welfare but also for a long lasting of the Sangha. But if monks are hanging like calves on the breast of a cow, fear of lacking nutrition through lack of doing favours, that it's difficult for them, inwardly and outwardly as well.

As the Sublime Buddha also often accounted, even for ones disciples, when they act very foolish, the teacher(s) have to be called fools, because they didn't taught well.

Just for the case the Venerables would seek for solving transgressions and might not know: important for confessing a transgression is to find someone pure in this regard (not with same transgression) and it's total fine if finding a very youngster to do so. And it's also good not to receive an amend, if having actually the same fault carry with oneself, since such would then possible not really purify the one who makes confession or increases his wrong views.

And good of course if Nyom, rather than to run hidden around and make possible unskillful undertakings by breaking peoples apart, would be if she tries to lay out a bridge and tell the Venerables that they are more then welcome to make use of all possibilities here. Sure, such could be of cause strong again ones personal interests, could it? But there would lie a big change for grow.

And to give the most "funny" info, since Nyom said "I will not investigate in detail", the critic toward the late Bhikkhu was made by a formal lay person at this time, who invited a Bhikkhu, translated his teachings and, to take care on law and his reputation, removed stolen pictures in the translations, was therefore rebuked by him, aside that he criticised his wish to share teachings foremost to older and lonely people, since that would bring the best results and gains...

It's really foolish to act in such ways, Nyom, and it's even more foolish to take not only side but side with fools and what is called "notorious wrong does, not able to be corrected".

Whether it's a blessing to associate with fools or get disappointed of what is good to gain disappointment, that lies in the sphere of Nyoms judgement and ability to see through the net of defilements and desires.

For those who could gain health:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Avannaraha Sutta: Dispraise

“Bhikkhus, one possessing four qualities is deposited in hell as if brought there. What four? (1) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one speaks praise of one who deserves dispraise. (2) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one speaks dispraise of one who deserves praise. (3) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one believes a matter that merits suspicion. (4) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one is suspicious about a matter that merits belief. Possessing these four qualities one is deposited in hell as if brought there.

“Bhikkhus, one possessing four [other] qualities is deposited in heaven as if brought there. What four? (1) Having investigated and scrutinized, one speaks dispraise of one who deserves dispraise. (2) Having investigated and scrutinized, one speaks praise of one who deserves praise. (3) Having investigated and scrutinized, one is suspicious about a matter that merits suspicion. (4) Having investigated and scrutinized, one believes a matter that merits belief. Possessing these four qualities one is deposited in heaven as if brought there.”

Quote from: http://accesstoinsight.eu/en/tipitaka/sut/an/an04/an04.083.bodh

It's hard to give more then this for ones long term happiness and not sure if another is capable to take and grow with it.

Posted by: gvg

« on: March 13, 2020, 11:41:48 AM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Sorry for the delay.

I have consulted with the Sri Lanka monks that I highly respect about your post. These monks are Mayaha Thero senior monks with more than 50 years as monks and they are surely your seniors.

I asked two questions which are:

1 - Is is correct for a monk to criticize publicly another monk using insulting words with the intention of correcting him from some supposedly wrong doing?

And they agree with me that a monk first need to contact the monk that is doing wrong and talk with him privately.

If that monk doesn't correct his behavior, then the monk that wants to correct the other monk has to stop right there because each person is responsible for his own actions and because the monk that wants to correct the other monk has done his best and he also has to respect the limits.

I will add here that in the monks rules, it is strictly prohibited for a monk to use insulting words against another monk.

https://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/vinaya/227/92pa.htm#ch-----2

pācittiya 2
"omasavāde pācittiyaṃ."

"Not to insult another bhikkhu. If, by means of abusive words, a bhikkhu verbally offends another bhikkhu, he commits a pācittiya."

That is why criticizing with insults was wrong specially because Bhante Samahita was a senior monk and the lower ranking monk has to respect him and never, never attempt to offend a senior monk in public.

Therefore, according to the vinaya rules, the monk who has use verbally offensive words against another monk has COMMITTED A PACITTIYA and he has to confess that offense in his own sangha for his own good.

2 - Is it correct for a lay person to criticize the actions of a monk, if the lay person consider that the monk has done something wrong?

And once again, the monks agree that there is nothing wrong, if a lay person (according to his/her understanding) tells a monk if he is doing something wrong.

Curiously, in the temple, like if the monk was reading my mind and before I asking anything, he started telling a story about a lay woman who appeared to have some mind reading powers. It just happened that there was a monk who each time was thinking wrongly, the women was able to read his mind and warned him about his bad thoughts. Then, the monk didn't like the fact that this woman was able to correct him each time this problem happened, so he went to the Buddha and complained about the woman, telling the Buddha that he can no longer stand being in that forest.

Curiously, the Buddha didn't see any wrongdoing from the part of the woman and ordered the monk to go back to the forest.

So, this story answer your question when you asked me if I was not afraid of criticizing a monk because you also didn't like it to be criticized by a lay person.

If you still don't recognize that you have done wrong. Then, show your post to your senior monks in your own sangha and I hope they can give you a good advice.

I wish you the best.

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: February 17, 2020, 03:11:05 PM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Now let's look if compassion without reqired respect of the receiver could access to get ride of wrong ideas or not: Abhaya Sutta: To Prince Abhaya (On Right Speech)

, and wether she might be able that critic ad critic aren't the same in all cases, sometimes simply aversive sometimes very compassioned minded, sometimes right and of pure compassion, even hard to bear.

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: February 17, 2020, 02:57:23 PM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Nyom told that she likes to ask her trusted Sri Lanken Monk. That's fine and if she thinks it's good to speak without much awarness, considering prove... that's also "fine".

Nobody could help her out of grasped movie, behind giving some advices, for to let go one has to look and "not sure".

Posted by: gvg

« on: February 17, 2020, 02:08:12 PM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

"before asking another person on advice"

When did I asked you for advice?? I only told you what I think was wrong on your post regarding Bhante Samahita.

"And also good to ask him to answer in ways that could be made public and not just a personal favor"

When did I asked you for a personal favor??

Not true.

Just in case when I talk privately with the monks it means talking with them in the temple, in an open area or where there is people around but not necessarily they know what I am talking with the monk/monks. Many people talk like that with the monks for advice, etc. and people respect their privacy, not gathering around to know personal issues unless it is something open for discussion, which also often happen to share with everybody in the temple.

"Was it at certain time a monk, even a Bhikkhu who made public critic?"

Bhante you keep going around and around and around the same thing that it is not the problem. I agree with a Bhikkhu that make a public critic but what I disagree is what I already told you several times. And it is the words you used when you criticized Bhante Samahita in public, by name and because I consider that calling him fool, idiot thief, etc or encourage others to follow the same line it doesn't sound right to me. That is all.

You have not explained if insults are ok when a monk doesn't listen if that is the case that is why I asked you for a quote that I didn't get.

When I told you about the bad words you are not saying a single word, instead you keep talking about the critique, which is not the problem. But I already told you I will consult with the Sri Lanka bhantes about it. I will see them in a week.

I will not make an investigation about every single point in the list because It may take a lot of time and that why I have the best advice from the Sri Lanka monks to guide me.

"Do I seek for someone to blame for my lose or maintain something which wasn't the case?"

Which lose? Who lost? You, me, him?? Are you referring to me?

You can keep arguing forever if you want but you will waste your time Bhante because I will check with the Sri Lanka Bhantes about it and let you know in private or in public, whatever you prefer.

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: February 17, 2020, 01:20:21 PM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Some things to possible good to investigate before asking another person on advice, Nyom. And also good to ask him to answer in ways that could be made public and not just a personal favor, standing with the Dhamma and the Vinaya of the Buddha.

* Was it at certain time a monk, even a Bhikkhu who made public critic?
* Was it a justified critic?
* Do I know what was going on?
* Did he actually changed his ways?
* Did he respected or disrespected rebukes?
* Was critice later continued after no success?
* How did he react in exchange?
* Am I possible certain preoccupied and also wrong informed, or just open to what I feel itjs right?
* Do I seek for someone to blame for my lose or maintain something which wasn't the case?

Why my person, althought still not really approaching in proper manner, urges good investigation? Because of the Dhamma, truth of effects, out of simply compassion: AN 4.83: Avannaraha Sutta - Dispraise

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: February 17, 2020, 11:17:20 AM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Saying's are good to consider and to prove, and it's not wise to take them as "it is", as well as "it isn't so". Mudita if having found a relayable guide as such isn't easy and for everyone to gain Nyom gvg . Saying that my person hadn't perceived yet, doesn't mean that such couldn't exist and he is more than interested to get better perceived, more then welcome toward better in regard of good qualities.

How ever one perceives so he thinks, speaks.

Posted by: gvg

« on: February 17, 2020, 09:11:31 AM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Bhante, excuse me but maybe again I am misunderstanding you by the way you talk...

If you "isn't aware of any Sri Lankan (seasian) monk of deep respect on Vinaya and the Dhamma but it's usually wordly services and doing favors for gain that monks dwell in outer lands (of course their could be)"

What kind of "favors for gain" do you think these monks are trying to get??? These monks are not looking for fame, etc and I can assure you that they have never asked for anything in exchange for their teachings.

I consider it is inappropriate to say or even insinuate such a thing when you don't know the people you are referring to. Specially, again, it is a negative comment against fellow monks said by another monk.

It will be better not to say anything because you don't know them. Therefore, it sounds to me like you are trying to discredit these monks, "in advance" in a subtle way... So, whatever they say to me, it is not true and only you are right.

Why do you think you have better understanding of the Vinaya/Dhamma than other monks? Wrong again. Isn't it too much pride from your part?

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: February 17, 2020, 08:25:40 AM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Just to mention two thing: my person isn't aware of any Sri Lankan (SEAsian) monk of deep respect on Vinaya and the Dhamma but it's usually wordly services and doing favors for gain that monks dwell in outer lands (of course their could be); and a German language proverb: "A crow doesn't pick out the eye of another crow". As that what one desires to see is mostly that what one finds and hardly it would be unknown truth.

Nothing to worry isn't categorical valid, otherwise wise wouldn't give advices, sometimes even hard to take.

Posted by: gvg

« on: February 17, 2020, 07:50:42 AM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Nothing to worry then.

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: February 17, 2020, 07:45:54 AM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

So then. And nothing to worry. As told already: those rejecting critique categorical are really fools. Not easy would one accept giving out of compassion and carefully investigate it. And being come together again, and again, on an element, seldom that able to escape from bonds.

Posted by: gvg

« on: February 17, 2020, 07:39:40 AM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

It will be a good learning experience.

You shouldn't feel offended anyway.

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

« on: February 17, 2020, 07:26:14 AM »

Insert Dhamma Quote

Then may Nyom go on to monks who teach and talk with woman privatly and who teach when signs of disrespect are shown. It's up to Nyom what she thinks to be a refuge and when she feels well with it, why not letting leave.

If liking to gain in proper ways and secrure ways, she may now know the necessary prerequisites.

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Topic Summary

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: gvg

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: gvg

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: gvg

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: gvg

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa

Posted by: gvg

Posted by: Dhammañāṇa