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Vihara => Open Vihara - [Offenes Vihara] => Topic started by: Dhammañāṇa on October 23, 2019, 12:01:20 PM

Title: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on October 23, 2019, 12:01:20 PM
Bhante Ariyadhammika ,

my person known that there might touch much currently but all of that is not thought to touch or entertain avija but possible destruct it if there is potential for such. May Bhante use it as further possibility to bend things right.

Having just come across this work "The Kamma of Arahants (https://sasanarakkha.org/2019/01/05/the-kamma-of-arahants/) and seeming to be strongly related to grave wrong views (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php/topic,9486.msg20216/topicseen.html#new) here, may person likes hope that this work is merely meant as philosophical entertainments and giving favors to those clinging on certain views of equality. Did Bhante seriously ever read what he wrote?

Quote from: https://sasanarakkha.org/2019/01/05/the-kamma-of-arahants/
I would therefore suggest that the actions of Arahants can be called ”kamma” or “kiriya” (which are synonyms), without implying that Arahants accumulate kammic potential that leads to kammic results (kammavipāka) in the future. All six roots (mūla) are gone, yet their actions (kamma/kiriya) are free from greed (lobha), hatred (dosa) and delusion (moha) and therefore non-greedy (alobha), non-hating (adosa) and undeluded (amoha).

Their actions certainly have effects on themselves and others, but these effects are not governed by the law of kammavipāka and its three (?? 2 or repeating for long- if wishing so) times of ripening (during present, next or a future life).

Their actions (kamma/kiriya) are performed through body, speech or mind, yet they don ́t accumulate
kamma that can produce results (vipāka) in the future.

Did Bhante ever investigate the matter of touch in relation of kamma?

Neither do actions of Arahats effect themselves nor others (no more kamma, actions upon world, personal) and all of their remaining by body, speech and mind are left behind, run out, as the unexcelled field of merits, for kamma to go beyond. Even this field of merits can only be touched by those still working on field, can not be changed, is not altered by Arahats. Certain, those touched by Arahats, by means of their choices have good chances to become another untouchable, one who does not touch anybody or anything, incapable for performing any harmful, either good or bad.

Bhante would do good if he follows more the help of the elders he had been given, that there is no danger to fall off, no danger to harm many.

It's not wise to think it is of support to give release in regard of perception toward those still strongly clinging to form, possible by oneself still maintaining an household and a kitchen. It's not possible to understand the reach of an Arahat and simply leads to stupidy for those pounder to much on it.

Once a person has actually reached the path, and only then one can progress to give release of lasting perceptions. Such person can use and understand any word in meaning of the right Dhamma. A common person can not and trades with favors. So till then, and when spoken broadly, may Bhante follow the parents and elders of his tradition.

While kamma is used to denote perceived actions of living beings, kiriya is often used for from outward perceived actions of Arahats. There is no word, since people lack of a proper perception, which could denote the outrunning fuel of Arahats. It's therefor better to let rest such cases, cite the texts and don't try to be smarter then the Buddha. If there would be a way to use words to describe things beyond world without simply speaking in similes, the Buddha would already have done so and the Tipitaka would not need to count 100 books + repeating the same again and again with other words, but simply a sentence: as here "what ever comes into existence is subject to decay"

Did Bhante got it? if so.... yet "we" do not harm or promote decay either, not to speak for the bellies sake, sake of gain, followers, reputation... such wouldn't make sense and the Dhamma pointless if seen in actions, brought into homes from luxury "Forest-resorts" with monks not fearing to steal what ever to maintain their entertaining shows to maintain their houses, stand, homes... "we are smarter then the Jewels and their ancestors", vote for us and you can steal what ever you like or modify it for your desires, needs and objectives in the world.

This world has enough on others pain riding on luxury enjoying homie-scholars but strongly lacks of Arahats, lacks of those having left world and societies behind.

May Bhante not become another of the first sort but a field of merits quick, after having actually left home and citizenship, refuges in the world.

kiriya is well expalined by late Nyanalokita Thera, in that far to point on neutral (yet again using kamma...), who followed the elders and it is good to explain the different between a total fool (one who has not penetrated form, home, stand) and an Arahat. To easy does the fool not see the dangers in his householder-equanimity, does not see the kammic effects (something wrong in the commentaries: to say being not aware is not kamma. And inaction also has it's effects since merits are nothing lasting. If Bhante wished to point out this, then Sadhu, Sadhu! and please follow it by actions)

Quote from: http://www.accesstoinsight.eu/en/lib/authors/buddhadasa/dhammawithpictures#._ignorance
12. Ignoring the truth

(https://forum.sangham.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accesstoinsight.eu%2F_media%2Fen%2Flib%2Fauthors%2Fbuddhadasa%2F12_small.jpg%3Fw%3D300%26amp%3Btok%3Daacd71&hash=dee7da3152d406026367a593e9418d70a52c807f)

Klicken Sie hier um das Bild großer zu sehen Here, the boy facing the lion does not fear it because he is not aware of the real danger. The lion represents the defilements of greed, anger, ignorance and lust as well as birth, old age, sickness and death. The young man is incapable of appreciating the danger confronting him because in his ignorance he still clings to the overt sensory perceptions of form, sound, taste, smell, and touch which are the bases for unsatisfactory experience. In contact to this state of ignorance, the figure above does realize life’s perils. Having comprehended these elementary causes, he points them out to the young man who still persists in ignoring the truth.

18. Wrong practice of buddha-dhamma

(https://forum.sangham.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accesstoinsight.eu%2F_media%2Fen%2Flib%2Fauthors%2Fbuddhadasa%2F18_small.jpg%3Fw%3D300%26amp%3Btok%3D57f1aa&hash=fe477da60c1dd12f5754ab8bee245f6a1dd43f66)

The Buddha, here representing the true teaching, is being attacked by three monks and one laymen. The fact that there is only one layman attacking the teachings indicates that many monks, once having been ordained in the order, continue to follow false path and are attached to ceremony. They are indifferent to the true teachings and prefer the Wheel of Wandering-on to Nibbāna.

(Monks, as they are more conspicuous than layman and because they are supposed to be devoting their lives to the Three Gems, and because it is known that they have many precepts to keep pure, can attack the Dhamma by misconduct in a more violent way than is possible for laypeople)

30. Bhayañāņa

(https://forum.sangham.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accesstoinsight.eu%2F_media%2Fen%2Flib%2Fauthors%2Fbuddhadasa%2F30_small.jpg%3Fw%3D300%26amp%3Btok%3D63c8c7&hash=11754aa380893785031e6770430a27c3d661699a)

This picture also illustrates the theme of the knowledge of fearfulness but is by a different artist. Here the boy (or the immature person) is frightened by the lion while above the aspiring monk, (who stands for the mature person able to face unwelcome but true facts) realizes the fearsomeness of all compounded things.

39. Gotrabhūñāṇa

After attaining maturity of knowledge, one arrives at magga-ñāṇa or knowledge of the path leading to Nibbāna, following upon which one attains phala-ñāṇa (Fruition-knowledge), which is recognition of the Path.

(https://forum.sangham.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accesstoinsight.eu%2F_media%2Fen%2Flib%2Fauthors%2Fbuddhadasa%2F39_small.jpg%3Fw%3D300%26amp%3Btok%3D08b416&hash=0cee3544bb2858ff19a4b590f7acf1a7c4f7ffb9)

This picture illustrates maturity of knowledge (gotrabhū-ñāṇa). Here the aspirant points to the Three Gems upon the ornate throne and signifies that he has finally taken Nibbāna as the object of his meditation. At this stage, he is prepared to transcend the “family” (gotra) of ordinary mortals and progress into the realm of the Noble Ones (ariya), which term also means those who have developed.*

Magga-ñāṇa and phala-ñāṇa are obtained through the process of:

    1. stream-entering (sotāpaññā)
    2. once-returning (sakadāgāmī)
    3. never-returning (anāgamī)
    4. Arahantship (arahatta)

The four stages of this development* are represented by the four levels of lotuses in the picture and by the seated monks. The fully opened and blooming lotus stands for the Arahant or completely Enlightened One.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on October 23, 2019, 01:02:45 PM
There is the case where someone saying being an Arahat or speaking "I tell you the view and kind of Arahats, how things should be understood actually!". Now this person declares: "There is nothing taken by stealing things, no lose for anybody as there was no scarifies, no mother, no father, ... Monks, follower of the Arahats, don't fear to take and steal what is not given as long as you can argue that there has nothing been moved. Don't let your freedom in taking, your desires, be limited by such low Dhamma!"

What does Bhante think: Would such have great kammical effects for this "Arahat" or representing the Arahats and those bound to them, following his advices?

Would he speak in such case of "kamma" or "kiriya", of the ways of Arahats or the ways of total unaware fools seeking after the eigth Dhammas in the world, live for the world, bound to world and nurish on lose of others?

Would "this is most evil kamma, based on hell leading kiriya" be a good denotation for such an "Arahat"?


My person has seen broad honored monks declaring: "If such as no freedom in taking what is not given is actually the case, I would not have gone for refuge". Public, upvoted, highly applauded by fools. What does Bhante think about that case of renewing "collective" hell leading kamma if tracing such?
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on October 23, 2019, 01:53:29 PM
To leave it not to confusing behind for those who still hold on "Kaiser, and Kaisers Bart", Bhante Ariyadhammika . Can "we", if such a we-perception is desired and conductive for many, approve that the Buddha never declared "neutral kamma" but just two kinds, kusala and akusala, described in four ways, heading four different path in the world?

And what are the two kinds of kamma not beyond kamma yet, which are of four kinds declared, to point out their different effects, directions?

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Monks, these four types of kamma have been directly realized, verified, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result. There is kamma that is bright with bright result. There is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. There is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

"And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication, fabricates an injurious verbal fabrication, fabricates an injurious mental fabrication. Having fabricated an injurious bodily fabrication, having fabricated an injurious verbal fabrication, having fabricated an injurious mental fabrication, he rearises in an injurious world. On rearising in an injurious world, he is there touched by injurious contacts. Touched by injurious contacts, he experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result.

"And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a non-injurious bodily fabrication ... a non-injurious verbal fabrication ... a non-injurious mental fabrication ... He rearises in a non-injurious world ... There he is touched by non-injurious contacts ... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Beautiful Black Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result.

"And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

"These, monks, are the four types of kamma directly realized, verified, & made known by me."
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.235.than_en.html

In that sense, in this way, it's total improper to use "kamma" in relation with an Arahat, and all the more understandable why kiriya is well used as "replacement". Yet, to describe kiriya by means of kamma, again, sends one on loops or down-wardly.

May all of you always find ways, be/do touched in ways, which are next or within puññakiriyavatthu and may Bhante pardon if my person could not lead to rest, or leave rest, in Noble Domain with his "sharp" words. (Ku-sala ku=bad sala=cutting of/away.)

On this case, nidana, good to cite the Nidana Sutta:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Monks, these three are causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Aversion is a cause for the origination of actions. Delusion is a cause for the origination of actions.

"Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

"Any action performed with aversion — born of aversion, caused by aversion, originating from aversion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

"Any action performed with delusion — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originating from delusion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

"Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and the rain-god would offer good streams of rain. Those seeds would thus come to growth, increase, & abundance. In the same way, any action performed with greed... performed with aversion... performed with delusion — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originating from delusion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

"These are three causes for the origination of actions.

"Now, these three are [further] causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Non-greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Non-aversion is a cause for the origination of actions. Non-delusion is a cause for the origination of actions.

"Any action performed with non-greed — born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originating from non-greed: When greed is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"Any action performed with non-aversion — born of non-aversion, caused by non-aversion, originating from non-aversion: When aversion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, destroyed at the root, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"Any action performed with non-delusion — born of non-delusion, caused by non-delusion, originating from non-delusion: When delusion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and a man would burn them with fire and, burning them with fire, would make them into fine ashes. Having made them into fine ashes, he would winnow them before a high wind or wash them away in a swift-flowing stream. Those seeds would thus be destroyed at the root, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"In the same way, any action performed with non-greed... performed with non-aversion... performed with non-delusion — born of non-delusion, caused by non-delusion, originating from non-delusion: When delusion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"These, monks, are three causes for the origination of action."

A person unknowing:
the actions performed by him,
born of greed, born of aversion,
& born of delusion,
whether many or few,
are experienced right here:
   no other ground is found.[1]

So a monk, knowing,
   sheds
greed, aversion, & delusion;
giving rise to clear knowledge, he
   sheds
all bad destinations.[2]
 1. According to the Commentary, "right here" means within the stream of one's own "selfhood" (attabhava), i.e., one's own chain of rebirth. "No other ground is found" means that the fruit of the action is not experienced by any other person's chain of rebirth.
 2. The Commentary notes that this verse refers to the attainment of arahantship, and that an arahant — in reaching nibbana — sheds not only bad destinations, but also good ones.
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.033.than_en.html
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on October 23, 2019, 03:03:27 PM
Bhante Ariyadhammika , the fundamental possible missunderstanding, as Bhante pointed out at the beginning of his essay, is to assume that the Buddhas speaks of Arahats in both of the mentioned Suttas, when pointing out "path-kamma", but: no. This is, the good form, still the area of the Sekha.

So as Bhante introduced proper in his essay (here "strangely" taking the commentary as foundation for argument, to refuse the tradition!?):

The Commentary (to AN 3.33) notes that this verse refers to the attainment of arahantship, and that an arahant — in reaching nibbana — sheds not only bad destinations, but also good ones.


and refers to the "path-kamma" (only the verse end denotes the arahat in its last sentence in ways of telling about the result of the three other kinds of kamma):

„There are three (further) causes for the origination of kamma. What three? Non-greed is a cause for the origination of kamma; non-hatred is a cause for the origination of kamma; non-delusion is a cause for the origination of kamma. (1) “Any kamma, bhikkhus, fashioned through non-greed, born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originated by non-greed, is abandoned when greed has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising. (The same is then repeated for non-hatred and non-delusion.)” (AN 3.34)


It's obvious clear for Bhante that the Arahat neither doesn't (better appear to) act bright, nor dark, nor mixed, nor path-full, as his deeds, duties are done.

In both suttas, the last and promoted kamma is still kamma, kamma on the path, not the sphere of an Asekha yet.

So again, it's total improper to use the word kamma in relation with an Arahat, yet it is known that western language lacks of a special word for "actions of Arahats", of what is perceived by others.

And as it appeared by speaking on buying meat, Bhante: approve of killing, which can be, and is often present by one buying meat, is also akusala kamma of killing. It's not right to make favors in saying categorical "buying meat is no bad action", or to hold the view that verbal and bodily actions have impact while mental not or lesser.

Wouldn't it - out of lack for a proper word and to replace action, deed... western words, causing possible confusion - not actually the best to adopt very active the use of kiriya for outrunning moves of Arahats instead of trying to nourish on popular pseudo-liberalism? Could Bhante be that cool and free to use only kiriya when speaking with modern people? Does he has the freedom to such kiriya or leading to it?

Mudita and much approve toward having now found a proper word for "actions" of an Arahat by the help and means given by Bhante Ariyadhammika: kiriya, not to be mistaken with atthi (http://www.accesstoinsight.eu/en/attha)-kiriya.

Susukhumanipuṇatthadassinā… nibbānaṁ na hi tena dullabhanti.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on October 23, 2019, 03:37:07 PM
May my person ask Bhante Ariyadhammika to dedicate his essay or a copy of it, for the Sangha of the eight directions, as it delivers good (aside of small better adopted usual) the Dhamma of the Buddha?

May my person make use of Bhantes Essay of "kamma" of an Arahat, on pointing out the possibility to use kiriya for distinction, to dedicate it toward the Sublime Sangha represented by the Sangha of the eight directions?

May person would still suggest to stick with the tradition and make use of a "new" possibility if the case is proper, use the usual logo for a assembly's need, case by case, and the modern world needs to get more familar with it's parents and ancestors rather then to give food to reject the parents tradition.

Again and a third: May my person ask Bhante Ariyadhammika to dedicate his essay or a copy of it, for the Sangha of the eight directions, as it delivers good (aside of small better adopted usual) the Dhamma of the Buddha? Not for the world but for gain of Unbound, not for social work and not for making favors.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 02, 2019, 12:59:52 PM
Having had the impression this morning, that dear Bhante Ariyadhammika might not have seen the point of issue yet, my person likes to give a sample on the danger of pseudo liberal approaches which are mostly caused by wishing to give favor and nourish pride of householder-equanimity for gains:

As born in Austria Bhante might have gained some knowledge in regard of respect and use of words. Lets take the deed of eating. The lowest kind "fressen", feed, is used for deed of eating of animals, here also for children and uneducated people. It's eating with sound, make a mess, unrestrained. A higher kind would be eating, dine... english does not use much differences any more.

In traditional countries, because ideals and kinds are different, and a use of distinction and force to strive for higher, there are many levels of eating, unrestrained, common good people,  that of people with sila, the eating of royals, that of monks. Each has it's word.

While not educated people, or "communists, would use feed everywhere, good families would train their children in use of word, deed and to understand the distinction. That is the reason not only for needed hierarchies but also for peace and certain force or wish to gain higher levels.

Now today it's popular to win favors by telling children that people with Sila, King, Monks, also just feed. That cuts their possible anchors down to where they are.

So it should be understood that ever upright person would blame a "teacher" who tells their children, for his bellies sake, honor, gain, thats o.k. when they say "The King is feeding. The Monk is feeding. Mother feeds, Buddha feeds".

He is known as either uninstructed, a fool, or a favor maker under good people. And his followers are sure to ever stuck in this hole having made a virtue out of incapacity.

The same is with Bhantes approach. Reader to turn to conservative ways, the way of the elders, to do first things firstand tell people the different and encourage to use distinctions that not informed start to train by body and speech, he cut good down to low, saying it's ok to say "the Buddha feeds, gorges", yet at the same time no evidence that Elders ever used to say such at the same time.

Does Bhante understand the basic but dangerous error?

It's much morean compassionate act if teaching (if even having learned by oneself) the child right ways and respectful speech step by step "when you speech of eating of an elder, use..., monk use..." than to give low food for low release in the middle of dirt that does not even shines in spheres of the world.

It's certain not easy to gain basic right views having grown up, associating, in post modern environments, there where householder-equanimity is mistaken with the path which starts with Sila and even gained renounciation equanimity does not abound where it came from.

My person hopes that Bhante can be another seldom person who gets the point and turns to acceptance and the truth of:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

76. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the sixth.

77. "Bhikkhus, the increase of relations is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the seventh.

78. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of wealth is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the eighth.

79. "Bhikkhus, the increase of wealth is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the ninth.

80. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of fame is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the tenth."
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.071-080.uppa_en.html

For the fool pseudo-liberalism shines like gold and certain "small-minded" seeming approaches are not traced as having a need till mind level in ones proper distinction is reached. Higher Silas would always cover "low" an the proverb "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi" is good to always remind.

May it be a visible trace of an escape from a prision one might not easy recognize ever spent in the palace for Bhante. The life outside, reallity of Samsara is different and the way out is not gained by trying to give farmers a feeling as if being kings.

It's possible to make a very usefull essay out of it, if changing basic view and re-write only some sentences which aren't pure at all if investigating honest. May Bhante do not fear lose of low and not be shy to gain the praise of the wise.

With this essay as it is, he has lost any honor even from simple but good farmers in areas where Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha is an old tradition and not just a new vehicle for marxist approaches for the mass of fools. And he does not need to fear that seeing a fault is not double approved and praised. Making mistakes the wise understands as he would not feel personal attached when a not instructed child from low family would say "feed" when he eats, yet out of compassion and for the gain ofvbetter spheres he would teach the child, starting with speech and body and later on mind stage.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Ariyadhammika on November 03, 2019, 12:07:00 AM
I don't know whether you have read the entire paper, but it seems you have overlooked the following passage, or else you may let me know why you choose to ignore it:


...The earlier quote from SN 56.11 explains that the Noble Eightfold Path has been developed by the Buddha. One of the path-factors is right action/doing (sammā kammanta), which is elsewhere defined as abstaining from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. It is to be expected that even after awakening, the living Arahant still possesses all path-factors, starting with right view, and also including right action.

This is explicitly stated in AN 10.112:
“Bhikkhus, there are these ten qualities of one beyond training. What ten? The right view of one beyond training; the right intention … the right speech … the right action … the right livelihood … the right effort … the right mindfulness … the right concentration … the right knowledge … the right liberation of one beyond training. These are the ten qualities of one beyond training.” (AN 10.112)

From this we can see that right action (sammā kammanta) applies even to the actions of Arahants (one beyond training).


If you have an explanation for how this passage can be understood differently, please let me know.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Ariyadhammika on November 03, 2019, 12:17:27 AM
Here another quote from my paper:

Now let´s see how “kiriya” is used in the discourses:
Then the Blessed One asked him: “Tapassī, how many kinds of action does the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describe for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action?”
“kati pana, tapassi, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto daṇḍāni paññapeti pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? (MN 56)

In the above passage ”kiriya“ is used with reference to unwholesome actions.

“Then the Nigaṇṭha Dīgha Tapassī asked the Blessed One: ‘And you, friend Gotama, how many kinds of rod do you describe for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action?’ ‘Tapassī, the Tathāgata is not accustomed to use the description ‘rod, rod’; the Tathāgata is accustomed to use the description ‘action, action.’ ’ ‘But, friend Gotama, how many kinds of action do you describe for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action?’ ‘Tapassī, I describe three kinds of action for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action: that is, bodily action, verbal action, and mental action.’
evaṁ vutte, dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho bhagavantaṁ etadavoca — “tvaṁ panāvuso gotama, kati daṇḍāni paññapesi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? “na kho, tapassi, āciṇṇaṁ tathāgatassa ‘daṇḍaṁ, daṇḍan’ti paññapetuṁ; ‘kammaṁ, kamman’ti kho, tapassi, āciṇṇaṁ tathāgatassa paññapetun”ti? “tvaṁ panāvuso gotama, kati kammāni paññapesi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? “tīṇi kho ahaṁ, tapassi, kammāni paññapemi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, seyyathidaṁ — kāyakammaṁ, vacīkammaṁ, manokamman”ti. (MN 56)

While it was initially Nigaṇṭha Dīgha Tapassī who used “kiriya” with reference to unwholesome actions, here the Buddha uses it in exactly the same way. This shows that “kiriya” is used in reference to kammically effective actions. The above example refers specifically to actions of non-arahants, since Arahants are not able to perform “evil (pāpa) actions”. This is contrary to the common usage of the term “kiriya” these days.

In case you have a reading of above passages that allows for a different interpretation, please let me know. Until then, I regard your various statements in this thread as your personal opinions, which contradict the passages under discussion.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 03, 2019, 06:24:45 AM
Bhante Ariyadhammika , again, the "failure" and "violation" does not come from the word in and of itself, but is always a matter of either right view and right intention or rebellion and ingratitude.

If Bhante would know my persons way a little, he would know that he is the last who makes saññas an object of a matter if the meaning is grasped but at the same time the largest if the meaning (for path) is not grasped.

What's, again, the purpose of the essay? To tell a whole tradition that they are small-minded fools? What counts, taken the advices, as own opinion? As Bhante surely knows, the Vinaya tells the own opinion to be the lowest refuge. Now, 2600 years after, comming up with "it's ok to say kamma of the Buddha", what is it? That what the Buddha, texts, tradition... tells or Bhantes result of investigation based on invalid logic at the same time?

The logic used here by him is like the logic western have in regard of greed. Because greed is akusala greed isn't a factor of the path. That's complet misunderstanding the point. Yet lobha isn't used to denote the path requirement. Chanda is also used in bad context. Understand the error?

While fressen, essen, speisen, dinnieren, einnehmen, zehren... can be used in many context, good or bad, fressen would nevertheless be used for a King, God or anything Sublime, not to speak if one does no more nurish.

A child, not better knowing, saying "Buddha frißt", a compassionate person would train to use better word so that at least not endangered by kamma in words and deeds. Sure minds kamma is still another matter, a child would not have really touched very akusala.

Again, there is no evidence that kamma is used for conducting by the Buddha, so what can be called an opinion here? And as one who has studied the Dhamma: Bhante should know well that a logic that works in the way Bhante uses here, does in many cases not work but fails.

Because einnehmen is found to be used in negative sense, it's ok to use fressen for Sublime.

Again, what's the intention, the purpose of the Essay. May Bhante tell my person that it is a pure one. As a meditator he may be able to investigate truthfully.

If Bhante would be someone not instructed, not seemingly in relation to the tradition, it could be seen as simply playing around, but he takes a stand in a leading possition with more responsibility then for opinion-battles for his favored targets.

Again, the matterial is wonderful if simply having the intent to show the Sublimity of the Buddha and really not good kamma if using it to pull the Sublime Buddha down as food for trade in the world, on the useless level of pseudo-liberality to make ones customers a favor.

If Bhantes intention of the essay and approach is actually really pure has a deeper, for the path even usefull purpose, may Bhante let it be known so that my person could regard the matter as simply "verfahrene unnütze Sache, wert zur Seite zu legen, zuzudecken".

May Bhante also keep in mind of not only puggala-kamma he conducts but also Sangha-kamma as being part of it and if remember his taks on the four factors influencing kamma to ripe, the proper estimate of the Sangha among people of right view has a huge impact for many. The Sangha becomes a not desired place to take birth if being no more praiseworthy regarded at large by wise.

Again, is the any reference that low estimated verbs are used to describe the conducting of the Buddha, did the tradition ever used the word kamma when the Buddha, an Aragat acts?

Good then to point out ways and word which can be used instead, as the tradition and devoted actually did (of which is object of wishing to destroy or pay no respect here, actually). Bhante would have the skill to pull people up rather the Tripple Gems down to them so that they feel pleased where they are.

It doesn't let Bhante shine if he walks the same low trade the many wester/modern do like children of ingratitude, to pick out the gross food to run their undertakings and trades in and for the world as another "previous wander of other sects" who could not abound basic wrong views. Ywt totally aware that such is not easy, takes time an would need much association with people of old tradition, Bhante might not have had and never really left home, the Deva-state, so many dwell. This state lets wholesome kamma easy ripe, but is a sphere difficult to understand the essence. If suffering is not well traced, if not having left palace, it's really difficult.

So may he meet the proper factors letting see both sides of kamma, the nice and the ugly.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: saddhamma on November 03, 2019, 12:36:02 PM
Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Many thanks to Bhante for the attempt to tackle such a difficult topic on how the arahant's action should be designated from the perspective of the discourses. From the Paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111), the term "kammanirodha" is used in reference to the results of actions based on non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion. From this sutta, it is reasonable to conclude that "kammanirodha" is equivalent to "samma kammanta of one beyond training", the arahant's right action. I think designating the arahant's action as kammanirodha avoids the Abhidhamma's contradictory definition of kiriya and is consistent with the suttas. May Bhante advise on any short comings Bhante sees with designating the arahant's action as kammanirodha, out of compassion  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 03, 2019, 12:58:32 PM
Let my person give it another try before giving up the case, Bhante Ariyadhammika .

Whether Bhante is aware or not, with his approach he touches not Dhamma at least, but Vinaya, convention. It seems to be that Vinaya is small-minded, culter isn't the path, but actually is. It sounds possible also strange when y person tells that Vinaya always takes Sakkāyadiṭṭhi into acount, even higher Sila does so, at least out of compassion of those caught within.

To invent a new convention that the use of "kamma" is valid to denote the conducting of the Buddha is an approach from a child upwardly. From outside the tradition wouldn't work and causes all but problems. Approaching the old family in such ways, small-minded as well in ways Bhante is used from his pseudoliberal cultur background cut him and his fellows off from the old tradition. Bhante should be aware where he is and where he comes from. He dwells far off the heirs, between Yupies and cultur-marxism.

Now, if two conventions met each other, which one has priority? The new-comers or that of the parents?

Western and modern arrogance is huge and they will not easy get aware of the damage they do everywhere in the world having simply to much merits but lack on fundamental wisdom.

Maybe Bhante is a little released when get informed that even the use of kiriya isn't really custom. That was why my person showed off some joy that there could be a special word.

When ever people speak of deeds of the Buddha, Arahats, Bhikkus, the Buddhaparisada is used to use the most sublime kind of words avaliable in their language. Traditional it is the reason why there is a seperat vocabular for many things speaking of the Buddha and the Sangha. It's right speech combined with the training of veneration.

It's total not an act of compassion to cut Sublime down to feed one kind and to trade with the destructive conceit of equality.

Another short story to explain the matter:

That Upasaka Chanroth could quicky understand the issue here my person spoke about a t-shirt he wears which actually promotes Marijuana. People here and he aren't aware of the saññas used on clothes, so within there sphere it's just nice color. Then I tild him that if a western Buddhist would see a buddist priest wearing marijuana promoting clothes he is quickly suspected of wrong conducts althought he might not even know. In this way he quickly understood the matter.

The same ay is here: althought it might be "cool" to wear the word "kamma" for the Buddha (yet in this case even informed but wishing to rebel and make a earning with it), as soon as old family would met one doing so, he will be regarded as outsider.

Now, it might be no problem for Bhante to be regarded as outsider as he might have a huge pocket of merits anyway, but it's totally not sure whether those bound to him can bear it likewise or are simply cut off with such ignorance toward the heirs, elders and tradition of which is not rootes in marxist movements.

It should be not seen as demand or even that my person would be a formal, conventional authority, but simply as a burdensome act of compassion to try to get Bhante back down on earth and earth lies not in the sphere of resorts and palaces.

So may Bhante think about his responsibility serious and decide wisely who is really worthy to serve, trade-sake in the world or going and encouraging other toward sublime and vossagga.

There are enough useless Sujatos, Brahmas, Scholars... around and when he thinks that it is worthy to sacrifices elders and parents for the gain of the trades cake, nobody can hinder him.

Maybe he likes to play his way of logic again with the pali words lobha (instead of kamma) and chanda (instead of the use of special verbs for the Sublime) to be able to trace the fault in his approach not only on the kammic level but also as invalid in regard of Sila/Vinaya.

May Bhante take care not to become another biggest thieve in the world, something fast happens like rich people and Kings are easy victims of their huge amount of merits.

Bhante needs to leave his former spheres of hardcore business, management and trade otherwise 1000 vassas wouldn't open him the path and real domain. It all starts with leaving home and not having taken another in a monastery or outwardly tradition.

My person thinks that it possible will take many years till Bhante gets the point here and he should not think that he isn't welcome anyway.

With respect toward Bhantes good deeds of past, future and possible even present.  _/\_
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Ariyadhammika on November 09, 2019, 11:03:43 PM
Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Many thanks to Bhante for the attempt to tackle such a difficult topic on how the arahant's action should be designated from the perspective of the discourses. From the Paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111), the term "kammanirodha" is used in reference to the results of actions based on non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion. From this sutta, it is reasonable to conclude that "kammanirodha" is equivalent to "samma kammanta of one beyond training", the arahant's right action. I think designating the arahant's action as kammanirodha avoids the Abhidhamma's contradictory definition of kiriya and is consistent with the suttas. May Bhante advise on any short comings Bhante sees with designating the arahant's action as kammanirodha, out of compassion  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Dear Saddhamma,
Thanks for bringing AN 3.111 to our attention. The entire quote in which the term kammanirodha occurs is this: "That kamma leads to the cessation of kamma (taṁ kammaṁ kammanirodhāya saṁvattati)".
Even here the term kamma is used, when it says "That kamma...".

The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Ariyadhammika on November 09, 2019, 11:40:54 PM
A. Johann,
To spare yourself the time and kamma of further speculation, let me offer some observations and clarifications about my intentions for writing this paper.
 
Now, I noticed that many of your defamatory posts in this thread seem to be based on the assumption that I may have an agenda of egalitarianism - trying to water down the differences between a Buddha, an Arahant and puthujjanas, which is indeed not uncommon among Western Buddhists. However, you are beating at the wrong bush. I don't care about Western ideas of egalitarianism, nor do I care about creating new words for the Buddha just to make him appear especially great. What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.

I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof. Comparative study of Early Buddhist texts by putting side-by-side the Pali, Chinese, Sanskrit, Tibetan versions of a text, too is a helpful tool in this regard. It is your perfect right, to place your faith in later generations of commentators, sub-commentators, Ajahn this, Sayadaw that, Svaminvahanse so-and-so. However, to me the Mahāpadesasutta offers a perfectly useful guideline how to deal with teachings that are in contradiction with the Dhamma and Vinaya as explained by the Buddha himself. When you urge others not to dismiss tradition, it seems you emphasize more on the LATER tradition, rather than the EARLIER tradition of the Buddha himself.

I think my paper has shown very clearly that in the discourses the word kiriya is not limited to Arahants, but is being used for puthujjanas; ironically, not a single discourse could be found where the term kiriya is used for the Buddha or Arahants. Thus, your assertion that a special word needs to be used for the Buddha as a sign of respect, is not in line with the usage within the discourses and Early Buddhist tradition. Surely, there are instances where honorific terms are being used e.g. Bhagavā; however, when it comes to the conventional way of speaking about actions, no special word has been used with regards the Buddha and Arahants. Even the word kiriya is not taken as a honorific term by the Abhidhammikas, but as a term that is meant to indicate the the Buddha's actions (kamma) lack kammic potency - they can't produce vipāka and are simply functional. 

My pointing out that the in the suttas the term kiriya was never used in reference to the Arahants, is a factual statement. Your apparent discomfort with this truth makes no difference.

However, my intention for pointing out that the suttas use the word kiriya in regard to puthujjanas, and the term kamma can be used even for Arahants, has nothing to do with trying to make Arahants equal to puthujjanas, or about being disrespectful. The opposite is the case. It is out of respect for the Buddha himself, and an interest in finding out how HE used important doctrinal terms, that I find it worthwhile pointing out that the suttas use these terms differently from the Commentarial and Abhidhammic traditions.

Long story short: If you feel at home with the later "tradition", so be it. I have no objections. But I do object to your speculation of the underlying motives behind my paper. This is all have to say on this matter.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Varado on November 11, 2019, 12:31:33 AM
The words KAMMAKIRIYA make best sense when used together i.e. 'doing an action.' To say that kiriya is for one type of person, and kamma is for another is to ignore this basic grammar.

In the suttas, where kiriya is used alone, it can be regarded as an abbreviation for kammakiriya. See examples below. But in Abhidhamma, kiriya clearly does not mean kammakiriya. Therefore Abhidhamma useage cannot be part of the discussion.

Bhante's examples where kiriya means [kamma]kiriya, are as follows:

1) If there is an undertaking of kamma (atthi [kamma] kiriyā) , then on the dissolution of the body this good person will reappear in a happy destination.

2) Bhikkhus,  the  Blessed  Ones of  the  past  taught  a doctrine of kamma, a doctrine of undertaking of kamma ([kamma] kiriya), a doctrine of energy. (AN 3.138)

But bhante's quote from the Abhidhamma says “The fourth type of consciousness is called kiriya which, for want of a better term, is rendered by ‘karmically ineffective’, ‘inoperative’ or ‘functional’. …

Here kiriya cannot be parenthesised as kammakiriya. Therefore Abhidhamma cannot be used to explain the suttas.

The karmic division between arahants and non-arahants is seen in the term saṅkhāraṃ abhisankharoti. Arahants do not saṅkhāraṃ abhisankharoti. In other words, arahants do not accumulate either merit or demerit or neutrality, which is what saṅkhāraṃ means in this context. They perform neither puññā nor apuññā nor āneñjā. Consider this quote:

1) When a bhikkhu has abandoned avijjā and aroused vijjā, he does not undertake kamma that is meritorious, demeritorious, or karmically neutral.
☸ Yato kho bhikkhave bhikkhuno avijjā pahīṇā hoti vijjā uppannā so avijjāvirāgā vijjūppādā neva puññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na apuññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na āneñjābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti (S.2.82).
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 11, 2019, 03:16:50 AM
Sadhu both Venerables for, generosity and ammacchariya of many kinds, undertaking investigations and trying to do and guide each other and many either toward "doing kusala kamma" or even "just doing".

My person, again, doesn't think that there is a larger Dhammic problem here, but still thinks it's a Sila problem and yes, it's routed in traumatic misstrust of the parents, "a parents not yet on the right place, issue", something western, modern have a hard to fix, yet it's the task to be able to really enter.

Maybe the Venerables, given that Grandfather Varado pointed a little on the next aside of the "chanda, lobha" sample, wish my person thought to bring up, that the use of certain logic wouldn't apply in regard of language use in the tradition and older and traditional language, simple seeming, yet very formal (sila). The word puñña, pāpa, kusala, akusala, combined or allone.

Acting kusala (ku: bad, wrong, not useful ; sala: cutting away, clearing) as a certain craftsman, in a certain sphere, does not necessary mean to be in the area of puñña kirya vatthu. It's not pāpa (gain decreasing) in it sphere, but no puñña either.

(My person, again, also told at the beginning, is not of the opinion that there is any doing of neutral kamma defined by the Buddha, yet terms, using doing (without kamma) are used in later explainings and traditions, so as today it is common to use certain words in other languages to try to illustrate something)

My person mustard (add of two cent's) here is just add of mustard, no money, no value under measures of certain particular skills bringing gain or honor.

Hopefully the matter wouldn't get lost in a "imperators beard" issue, yet the "bread" is act-ually the (kamma doing) point.

Sometimes, on certain occation, when with people who good understand the creative use of words of Kana, my person used to use farting around, or trumping, if there are just āsavas flowing out. Yet if telling somebody "what a fart (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php/topic,892.msg4348.html#msg4348)" and he is not ready for release from something, it's ver hurtful. So please pardon if it gives possible field for kamma ripping.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 11, 2019, 06:24:10 AM
However, you are beating at the wrong bush. I don't care about Western ideas of egalitarianism, nor do I care about creating new words for the Buddha just to make him appear especially great. What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.
...

Having now the needed bodily strength to read Lok Mcha's Ariyadhammika   's approach (of which Kana didn't tillyet), it totally matches the point behind the "imperators beard" and the purpose to make it an issue, since a refuge denying the heirs of the Buddha and their ways and customs, sometimes refuge even only toward the Dhamma, even denying it toward the giver, it's not only an incomplete and dangerously refuge, giving ways for all kinds of defilements, but as told, a matter of Sila, even a heavy one, disregarding the Sangha not perceiving it. May Bhante don't see anything here as not given for only longtime welfare although possible seeming like ill-will.

That's really the only and real importand issue here, and the rest isn't that much of any heartwood here for own path and that of many.

It's really not possibly to say it's traditionalist if denying direct ancestors but more in the sphere of rebellious, suggesting more direct lineage toward origin then parents. It's not easy that issue to overcome having grown up in post-modern societies, and yet, to get only this small seeming issue done, this fall on graditute, makes the refuge unshakable.

The notion of this kind of refuge, if just toward the Buddha, leads to Ven Chanda-Syndrome and if it then goes just toward Dhamma, is not just individual, but seeks for followers, it can grow to heavy relation toward Devadatta. Yet all the said is not easy to prove simply in and of itself in one self, not easy to look from outside, not personal touched, but exactly that to do is the purpose of the threefold Refuge and giving the own opinion the lowest value, total contrary as used to grow up.

It's not so, Bhante, that Kana speaks of things not knowing, not having had to challenge, without seeing how hard and "painfull" to master.

May the blessing that Bhante could find a good footfold here in his parents and his domain, help him to discover things so hard to trace in outer lands.

mudita
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: saddhamma on November 12, 2019, 03:18:26 AM
Quote from: ??
The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Thank you very much for sharing your understanding of the two types of kammanirodha, rebirth-productive kammanirodha for the living arahant, and all-action (by body, speech and mind) kammanirodha which takes place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

In Cetanā sutta (AN 4.171), the Buddha describes how all-action (by body, speech and mind) does not apply to the living arahant.


Kāye vā, bhikkhave, sati kāyasañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Vācāya vā, bhikkhave, sati vācīsañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Mane vā, bhikkhave, sati manosañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ avijjāpaccayā va.

"When there is the body, O Bhikkhus, with bodily intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain; when there is speech, O Bhikkhus, with verbal intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain; when there is the mind, O Bhikkhus, with mental intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain, all conditioned by ignorance."

...

Imesu, bhikkhave, dhammesu avijjā anupatitā. Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā so kāyo na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, sā vācā na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, so mano na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, khettaṃ taṃ na hoti, vatthum taṃ na hoti, āyatanaṃ taṃ na hoti, adhikaraṇaṃ taṃ na hoti, yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.

"In all these cases, O Bhikkhus, ignorance hangs on. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain. That field (khettaṃ) does not exist, that ground (vatthum) does not exist, that base (ayatanam) does not exist, that case-because-of-which (adhikaraṇaṃ) does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain.



My understanding based on this sutta is that the arahant’s all-action (by body, speech and mind) is not so easy to designate as the Abhidhamma would like us to believe, and that the arahant need not wait for khandhaparinibbāna for cessation of all-action (by body, speech and mind). To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply. This is how I understand it.

May Bhante kindly point out other suttas I may have overlooked in support of kammanirodha taking place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna, out of compassion.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: saddhamma on November 12, 2019, 03:49:42 AM
Quote from: ??
What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.

I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof.

Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
This is very well stated Bhante, not badly stated!
It is connected with welfare and happiness, not unconnected!

Since I too have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta on this very forum, may Bhante allow me to repeat Bhante’s fine statements:

What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.

I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof.

Dear Bhante Johann,
Don’t take this to mean the whole of Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong. It is only those teachings that does not hold up under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya that need to be discarded as badly learned.
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 12, 2019, 04:33:12 AM
Okasa

guessing that the basic issue of the topic and approach might have been seen, understood, and possible for one self "sacca ujju" proofed, having no doubt in relation of the fundamental things, Kana thought to illustrate the use of the meaning of "sammā kamma" in relation with the path and in relation with an Arahat for speech, as an example (likewise in all other ways of doing or doing of kamma:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammāvācā sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā: musāvādā veramaṇī, pisunāya vācāya veramaṇī. Pharusāya vācāya veramaṇī, samphappalāpā veramaṇī. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammāvācā sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā.
 
Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammāvācā ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā: yā kho bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgīno ariyamaggaṃ bhāvayato catuhipi vacīduccaritehi ārati virati paṭivirati veramaṇī. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammāvācā ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā. So micchāvācāya pahānāya vāyamatī, sammā vācāya upasampadāya. Svāssa1 hoti sammāvāyāmo. So sato micchāvācaṃ pajahati. Sato sammāvācaṃ upasammajja viharati. Sāssa hoti sammāsati. Itissime2 tayo dhammā sammāvācaṃ anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti. Seyyathīdaṃ: sammādiṭṭhi, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati.


"And what is right speech? Right speech, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right speech with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right speech, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right speech that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Abstaining from lying, from divisive tale-bearing, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter. This is the right speech that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

"And what is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech.
Quote from: ??

In honor and devotion and for the purpose of purification with sublime perceptions, to make either merits in the world of progress on the path, devoted disciples and followers are using traditional there best and sublime words to denote higher and sublime, to express the proper classification, to steady reflect ones own position and that of others in a relation and to give by-sitting third orientation where to direct their ways to.

So is it the tradition, as exemple to distinguish between the speech of "householders" and "homeless", to lift the quality toward good perception, here, in the land of the Khema, to use word, verbs, adverbs, adjectives like "[buddhikara] (ga)tha", 'spoke [for the purpose/to effect awakening]', or "trung trach tha", 'spoke out of awakended position', when speaking about the conducts of the Sublime Buddha and his Monks.

Also in regard of conventionally hierarchy in orientation measured in worlds values, different words are used to give ways for reflecting ones position in relations and for orientation.

My person isn't familar with formal and polite speech in english, hasn't traced such in this realm, but it's possible by using longer strings "illustrating" to denote such also with languages certain void of distinction of conducts of different qualities, classification, something that goes along with giving value toward mind and reduce value in regard of products and productivity.

Being total opposite the global tendency and requiring a lot of sacrifices, focusing on deeds, turning aways from focus on fruits/product, it's not only a great field to work, but also a field of huge merits if finding objects worthy to sacrifices such.

In this manner my person ask's foremost those serving as object for others to purify themselves to lesser give easier ways and more familar but samples of Sublime as foremost gift for "children". If having troubles with receiving great gifts, honor, devotion from formal children, tending to improper modesty in a certain relation, then it's good to do not step down but fastly clean oneself so to be able to remain or become a real gift, a place to work and giving into as ni-mitta od the Tripple Gems.

It all has very sublime nuances which can be only learned if in near relation and association and for one taking on the training, all starts by the gross before going into the fine, body, speech and mind. Used to the different ideas, very gross defilements are often not seen like a carpenter would polish the bark of a tree in the forest thinking he nearly had finished to make a chair.

And again, please never put yourself above the position of your near parents, which isn't easy when comming from a culture where parents, nissaya, had been replaced by dependency on a large community, where community stands above parents and individual.

It's because of such wrong focus that it is only for those having changed ancestorsship no more possible to kill mother and father (people of great guṇa toward one), Arahats, harm the Sublime Buddha, Splitt the community of Sages and to hold grave wrong views, conducting in various form on them (ingratitude:rejecting basic right view, Sublime, distinctions, gifts...).

You all here have huge capability and skills to transport things pleasing by means of matters, skills which are traced by the senses, languages...

May it had helped to focus not on gain and productivity to nourish the world but to focus on giving the world possibilities to nourish Sublime and beyond, since the imperator lies beyond the bread but nevertheless this bread matters much for the world incl. the Emperor's Clothes (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes) as it isn't the tradition of the Jains.


Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 12, 2019, 04:51:27 AM
/me

Dear Bhante Johann,
Don’t take this to mean the whole of Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong. It is only those teachings that does not hold up under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya that need to be discarded as badly learned.
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Upasaka Ebo,

my person wouldn't suggest anybody to study Abhidhamma from books (aside of use as after dish, or if finding joy only there) and knows well the tendency of western/modern people, like one has gone a path already actually. And Nyom would know how different Atma teaches and focus here.

There is also a saying of near patents: focus on Vinaya endangers on build up strong mana, Suttas without Silas, lead to micchādiṭṭhi, and focus on Abhidhamma makes crazy.

You here in western/modern world might have still possibilities to use the left behind and it's only possible by really leaving ones home, old relations, to possible get other traditions, customs know or even become part of it.

Palace-talks and books, stories heard, seen from far aways can not make one meet the four Messangers.

There is all trust that Nyom will use all in best possible way for him as well and it wouldn't be wise not to make use of given and prefer to relay on things avaliable in usual way.

First Things First (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/firstthingsfirst_en.html)

It's really worthy to think of the possibility that some palace-dwell could be much smarter as a 2600 years stream of goodness without making use of others, but it is because of such perceptions the forests disappear and where people did not know hunger 1000 of years they now struggle next the farming industry having exchanged skills of old and heritage with smart new technology. And there is no more way that they could live in lesser dependency or dependency they could trace.

Some may be out there who can "scratch the bend" (lit. from German, better maybe Austrian language use)

Beware on relaying on not given copies of take copies not given, beware of thinking like a thief how ever justified it seems.

mudita
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: saddhamma on November 12, 2019, 08:42:57 AM
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thanks to Bhante for his response to my comments about putting the Abhidhamma and commentaries under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya. I don’t quite follow the message Bhante is trying to get across in his response. Perhaps Bhante can post the translation of Therasutta (AN 5.88) on this thread from a source that Bhante ”trusts” and we can have further discussions about why one needs to properly examine the teachings of the respected elders against the dhammavinaya if one is to avoid being misled. 
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 12, 2019, 11:18:35 AM
/me : May Nyom Ebo do so and there is really nothing to worry to find equal and good to go after if not finding, or till finding, tracing more Sublime and puñña kiriya vatthu. And it's good to trust things personally given by ones Nissaya who and his gifts aren't bond torward world. That is then when one starts to become bond to unbond, a Sekha, when only relaying on such, even the material and fine material gifts aren't much. (There was the topic on "debt but to whom" where my person mentioned Nyom short time before) But yet really the time for Nyom to practice lesser maintaining doubts, having traced pāsāda, then giving and let go, than leaving house "really" would work in this short time left. It will then, if successed in regard the first step toward path, turn out total different as thought before anyway or simply back again, so nothing to lose aside of returning.

Mudita
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 12, 2019, 12:03:10 PM
My person thought of turning the topic more away from 'The Kamma of Arahants'!! to 'The Kamma of Arahants'?? and to investigate it from dhammic aspect. Seen that there are often different views in relation of a "living" or "death" one, my person thought of pumping up Upasaka Ebo's thoughts on the matter in response to Bhantes an nourish some ways of practicing with the very virtual (kammic) googlyana (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php/topic,1185.msg4759.html#msg4759) tradition and teaching and learning the/from the Devas:


My understanding based on this sutta is that the arahant’s all-action (by body, speech and mind) is not so easy to designate as the Abhidhamma would like us to believe, and that the arahant need not wait for khandhaparinibbāna for cessation of all-action (by body, speech and mind). To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply. This is how I understand it.

May Bhante kindly point out other suttas I may have overlooked in support of kammanirodha taking place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna, out of compassion.

Maybe, as just looked around, Upaya Sutta: Attached (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than_en.html) can help to release from landing and this Cetana Sutta: Intention (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.038.than_en.html) from standing, in an Abhidhamma discussion that might be above Vinaya and Dhamma.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Varado on November 12, 2019, 03:47:12 PM
Okasa Bhante,

Arahants do deeds, but make neither merit nor demerit. In other words, their kamma is free of kamma. The Parivīmaṃsanasuttaṃ explains this, as follows:

Bhikkhus, if someone immersed in ignorance undertakes a deed that is meritorious, his consciousness is furnished with merit;
Avijjāgatoyaṃ bhikkhave purisapuggalo puññaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti puññopagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

If he undertakes a deed that is demeritorious, his consciousness is furnished with demerit;
Apuññaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti apuññopagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

If he undertakes a deed that is karmically neutral, his consciousness is furnished with what is karmically neutral.
Āneñjaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti āneñjūpagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

When a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of knowledge, he does not undertake a deed that is meritorious, demeritorious, or karmically neutral.
Yato kho bhikkhave bhikkhuno avijjā pahīṇā hoti vijjā uppannā so avijjāvirāgā vijjūppādā neva puññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na apuññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na āneñjābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti (S.2.82).
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 12, 2019, 04:45:21 PM
Sadhu, Sanghamitta Varado, for an additional way for satisfaction and release!

Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Varado on November 12, 2019, 04:59:16 PM
Okasa bhante

The Nibbedhika Sutta shows the two meanings of kammanirodha. The arahant's new kamma ceases at his enlightenment. His old kamma ceases at his death.

• The bhikkhu... who is free of āsavas... undertakes no new kamma and nullifies previous kamma by the gradual experience [of its consequences].
☸ bhikkhu... anāsavaṃ... so navañca kammaṃ na karoti purāṇañca kammaṃ phussa phussa vyantīkaroti (A.3.414).
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 13, 2019, 06:46:12 AM
On the matter, honored Buddhaparisada.

Some Venerables and learned lay followers are of the opinion, that the "untouched" awarness of the Arahat isn't a permanent, saying he can dwell in a worldly sphere or in a sphere beyond. Some say it's permanent. Yet it's mostly discussed in relation with experiances (which are generally also actions).

If taken the grammer "When a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of knowledge, he does not undertake a deed that is meritorious, demeritorious, or karmically neutral.

"Then, with" suggests a certain condition after the first, at least leaves it open. Not sure if "and by that" would make a grave different.

Further the Sublime Arahats are often urged in practicing (at least to dwell pleasant) of which the passage of the "kamma of Arahats" on the eightfold path, is one sample.

Maybe, aside of ways to try to nail thing donw, often effected by "Abhidhamma", this help practical for release, the root sequence, shortly cited here:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The common person:

..."He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you....

The Sekha:

..."He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, let him not conceive things about Unbinding, let him not conceive things in Unbinding, let him not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, let him not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' let him not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you....

The Asekha, Arahat:

"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you.
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than_en.html

For neither Sekahs nor Asekhas, certain a field of no release, the Sekha gets advices.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Ariyadhammika on November 24, 2019, 08:03:38 PM

"But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."


To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply.

Dear saddhamma ,

The way I read the passage is, that it is trying to say that the conditioning power of an Arahant's actions by body, speech and mind does not exist anymore. There will be no kammic results (vipāka) as the consequence of his actions by body speech and mind.
I do not take this passage to mean that an Arahant has no more body, no more speech and no more mind.
In fact, it almost sounds absurd to say that the body comprised of the 4 great elements does not exist anymore after one has attained Arahantship.
However, it is not absurd at all to say that an Arahant's bodily actions etc. lack the basis to accumulate productive kamma (kammavipāka), because ignorance has been eliminated and therefore there being no more basis for the generation of kammic fruits based on actions by body, speech or mind.

As the sutta says, "that body/speech/mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."
It does not say, that there is no more body/speech/mind altogether.
I would rather understand it to mean that an Arahant's actions do not produce future pleasure and pain, yet he experiences pleaseure and pain as the fruits of past kamma until he attains khandhaparinibbāna. Clearly the Buddha and other Arahants experienced physical pain. They even took medicine to overcome their ailments (e.g. Sāriputta requested garlic at some point).

This goes to show that they still have a body, speech and mind and the noble eightfold path for them is complete with eight factors, including right livelihood, right speech, and right view.

What do you think about this, Saddhamma?

/me : corrected bbcode-error. An mention, to avoid possible feeling of impolite, overseen that have been adressed.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: saddhamma on November 24, 2019, 10:05:59 PM

"But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."


To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply.

Dear saddhamma ,

The way I read the passage is, that it is trying to say that the conditioning power of an Arahant's actions by body, speech and mind does not exist anymore. There will be no kammic results (vipāka) as the consequence of his actions by body speech and mind.
I do not take this passage to mean that an Arahant has no more body, no more speech and no more mind.
In fact, it almost sounds absurd to say that the body comprised of the 4 great elements does not exist anymore after one has attained Arahantship.
However, it is not absurd at all to say that an Arahant's bodily actions etc. lack the basis to accumulate productive kamma (kammavipāka), because ignorance has been eliminated and therefore there being no more basis for the generation of kammic fruits based on actions by body, speech or mind.

As the sutta says, "that body/speech/mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."
It does not say, that there is no more body/speech/mind altogether.
I would rather understand it to mean that an Arahant's actions do not produce future pleasure and pain, yet he experiences pleaseure and pain as the fruits of past kamma until he attains khandhaparinibbāna. Clearly the Buddha and other Arahants experienced physical pain. They even took medicine to overcome their ailments (e.g. Sāriputta requested garlic at some point).

This goes to show that they still have a body, speech and mind and the noble eightfold path for them is complete with eight factors, including right livelihood, right speech, and right view.

What do you think about this, Saddhamma?

/me : corrected bbcode-error. An mention, to avoid possible feeling of impolite, overseen that have been adressed.

Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Thanks to Bhante for pointing out the obvious implications of my statement, for Bhante is quite correct that this sutta does not imply that there is no body/speech/mind for the arahant. Perhaps my wording could have been more precise to say that for the arahant, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist "as we know it" for such a designation to apply.

I think the question that arahants do not create any kamma is well settled, so I take the main purpose of Bhante's article as an attempt to answer the question of how to designate the activities of an arahant, whether as kamma or kiriya or both or neither (similar to the Abhidhamma's attempts to simplify the Buddha's teachings). I brought in this sutta to the discussion to beg the question whether the activities of an arahant can be designated at all given that it is out of the range of our body/speech/mind experiences.

For what "doings" could be designated to the one for whom "done is what is to be done" (kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ). What "doings" could be designated to the one for whom "there is nothing further to be done" (natthi kiñci uttari karaṇīyaṃ)? What "doings" could be designated to the one for whom "there is no addition of what is done" (natthi katassa paṭicayo)? My suggestion for Bhante's article is that perhaps it is better for Bhante to use the Buddha's own designation of the activities of the arahant as kammanirodha, even if we don't understand what this designation mean, and will not understand it until we become arahants ourselves. What does Bhante think of this suggestion?
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: saddhamma on December 04, 2019, 12:04:12 AM
 _/\_ Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,

I have been giving Bhante's kamma-of-arahants view {as I perceive it} more thought and would like to offer the following critique and repudiation of the arguments that Bhante has put forth in support for designating the arahant's actions as kamma {at least suggesting that it is fine to use same word}. I hope that this more direct approach will give Bhante a more convincing reason for my suggestion to use the Buddha's own designation of "kammanirodha" to designate the actions of arahants {if this is actually the matters ground}.

I will analyze the arguments that Bhante has used {as I perceived them} to justify the kamma-of-arahants view in order to show {in my approach} the following:


May Bhante forgive me if my critique of Bhante's arguments in these analyses comes off as offensive in any way, for that is not my motive.

May Bhante kindly point out any flaws in these analyses that Bhante may find, or provide feedback on any misinterpretations or unjustified deductions from Bhante's arguments, out of compassion.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

/me  In my translations for the suttas used in these analyses, I will leave saṅkhārā untranslated since being a negative, there is no satisfactory English word to capture its full meaning. However, the instantiations of saṅkhārā (abhisaṅkharonti) and the resulting instances (saṅkhata) can be reluctantly rendered in English as "precondition" and "the conditioned" respectively. Dhamma is also left untranslated due to its broad range of meanings. Papañcā is translated as proliferations where needed, otherwise, it is left untranslated. Here, the following definition of precondition is used for translating abhisaṅkharonti:

Precondition: the act of preparing something for a subsequent action

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view by way of exposing a contradiction to Buddha's teachings of the four noble truths

To justify the {a} kamma-of-arahants view {if that was the purpose of the essay}, Bhante writes:

Quote
The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

Here, Bhante introduces an {lit.} abhhidhamma style re-definition of kammanirodha as rebirth-productive kammanirodha upon the attainment of arahantship, and all-action (by body, speech or mind) kammanirodha at the time of the  Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna. Bhante introduces a term khandhaparinibbāna which I am unable to find
in the suttas. Neither is there any distinction in the suttas between nibbana at the time of arahantship attainment (sandiṭṭhikanibbāna), and parinibbāna (see AN 9.47-49 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/09/sut.an.09.v05#para_47)). I understand that Bhante is using this term to refer to the arahant's [final] "cessation of the six sense bases of contact", so I will use this phrasing instead, to make it easier for those who are not familiar with abhidhamma or commentarial terms. Let us {me try to} analyze Bhante's {possible} re-definition of kammanirodha from the perspective of the kammanirodha sutta to see if it {my perception of it} is {could be} justified.

To aid analysis, I attempt a more direct rendition of the kammanirodha sutta (SN 35.146 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/sn/35/sut.sn.35#para_146)) as follows.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“navapurāṇāni , bhikkhave, kammāni desessāmi kammanirodhaṃ kammanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadaṃ. taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha; bhāsissāmīti.

"O bhikkhus, I will teach you new and old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen to that and do mind it well, I will speak."

katamañca, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ?
cakkhu, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ vedaniyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ...pe.... mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañcetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo.
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is old kamma?
The eye, O bhikkhus, is old kamma, especially conditioned, especially intended, to be felt, to be seen. ...pe.... The mind, O bhikkhus, is old kamma, especially conditioned, especially intended, to be felt, to be seen.
This is called, O bhikkhus, old kamma.

katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā,
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is new kamma?
O bhikkhus, whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.
This is called, O bhikkhus, new kamma.

katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodho?
yo kho, bhikkhave, kāyakammavacīkammamanokammassa nirodhā vimuttiṃ phusati, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodho.

And what, O bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma?
[That] which touches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action.
This is called, O bhikkhus, the cessation of kamma.

katamā ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā?
ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ -- sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā.

“And what, O bhikkhus, is the path leading to the cessation of kamma?
It is just this noble eightfold path, that is -- right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood , right effort, right mindfulness, right samādhi.
This is called, O bhikkhus, the path leading to the cessation of kamma.

]iti kho, bhikkhave, desitaṃ mayā purāṇakammaṃ, desitaṃ navakammaṃ, desito kammanirodho, desitā kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā. yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satthārā karaṇīyaṃ sāvakānaṃ hitesinā anukampakena anukampaṃ upādāya, kataṃ vo taṃ mayā. etāni, bhikkhave, rukkhamūlāni, etāni suññāgārāni. jhāyatha, bhikkhave, mā pamādattha; mā pacchāvippaṭisārino ahuvattha. ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī”ti.

“Thus, O bhikkhus, I have taught old kamma, I have taught new kamma, I have taught the cessation of kamma, I have taught the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever should be done, O bhikkhus, by a teacher for his disciples, desiring their welfare, having pity for them, that has been done for you by me, out of compassion. These are the feet of trees, O bhikkhus, these are empty huts. Cultivate jhāna, O bhikkhus, do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you.”

The kammanirodha sutta is a formulation of the four noble truths  in terms of kamma instead of dukkha as expressed in the standard formulation.

To show that the kamma formulation is equivalent to the standard formulation, it is shown that each noble truth in the standard formulation is equivalent to the corresponding noble truth in the kamma formulation as follows:

The standard formulation identifies the five holding aggregates as suffering in brief (saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā), indicating that the six sense bases (old kamma) must be identified as suffering in the kamma formulation. Let's see if that is the case. From the mahāhatthipadopama sutta (MN 28 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/mn/sut.mn.v03#._mahāhatthipadopamasuttaṃ)), we know that each sense base of contact arises with the five holding aggregates. Thus, the arising of the sense bases of contact is the arising of suffering. So we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the first noble truth.

The second noble truth in the standard formulation defines craving as the origination of suffering, whereas the kamma formulation defines "whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind" (new kamma) as the origination of suffering. This implies that the arising of present bodily, verbal or mental action is the arising of craving. This is consistent with the Buddha's designation of kamma in the paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/03/sut.an.03.v11#para_112) [112]) as either leading to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma, which is applicable only to those who have not destroyed craving. Thus, we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the second noble truth.

The third noble truth in the standard formulation defines the destruction of craving as the cessation of suffering, whereas the third noble truth in the kamma formulation defines "[that] which touches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action" (kammanirodha) as the cessation of suffering. In the suttas, we find that the destruction of kamma is synonymous with the destruction of craving. For example, here is a verse from the pārāyanavagga (Snp 5.0 (http://5. Pārāyanavaggo#para998)) by a deva extolling the Buddha's destruction of all kamma.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“so hi brāhmaṇa sambuddho, sabbadhammāna pāragū.
sabbābhiññābalappatto, sabbadhammesu cakkhumā.
sabbakammakkhayaṃ patto, vimutto upadhikkhaye.

He is a Sambuddha, brahmin, a transcender of all dhammas,
Having attained all higher knowledges and powers, endowed with eye in all dhammas,
he has attained to the destruction of all kamma, liberated through the destruction of all appropriations.

And here is a verse where the Buddha himself extolls the arahant's abandonment of all kamma in the mahaviyuha sutta (Snp 4.13 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/kn/snp/sut.kn.snp.4#._mahābyūhasuttaṃ)).

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

sīlabbataṃ vāpi pahāya sabbaṃ
kammañca sāvajjanavajjametaṃ
suddhī asuddhī ti apatthayāno
virato care santimanuggahāya

Having abandoned all virtue and observances
and kamma, whether blameworthy or blameless,
with no aspiration regarding “the pure and the impure”,
he would live unconcerned, not grasping after peace.

So from these examples, the destruction of craving is the destruction of action. Thus, we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the third noble truth.

The agreement between the standard formulation and the kamma formulation for the forth noble truth is self-evident and need no further elaboration.

Thus, the kammanirodha sutta can be summarize as follows:


So we see that the kammanorodha sutta is a deep exposition of the four noble truths.

If we go by Bhante's re-definition of kammanirodha that the arahant only realizes half of kammanirodha upon attaining arahantship and the other half at the time of the arahant's [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact, we have to conclude, for the sake of consistency with the four noble truths, that the arahant only realizes half of the cessation of suffering upon attaining arahantship and the other half at the time of the arahant's [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact. But this is a grave contradiction of the four noble truths as taught by the Buddha. Thus, we see that designating the arahant's action as kamma by re-defining kammanirodha contradicts the Buddha's teaching of the four noble truths.

The kammanirodha sutta, along with other suttas that are quoted at the beginning of the kamma-of-arahants article, namely the nidāna sutta (AN 3.34 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/03/sut.an.03.v04#._nidānasuttaṃ)), mahānidāna sutta (DN 15 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/dn/sut.dn.15)), and paṭhamasikkhāpada sutta (AN 4.235 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/04/sut.an.04.v24#._paṭhamasikkhāpadasuttaṃ)), are all very deep suttas where the Buddha illucidates the finer aspects of the supramundane right view of kamma and paṭicca samuppāda. They are deep in meaning (gambhīratthā), world transcending (lokuttara), connected with emptiness (suññatapaṭisaṃyuttā). They belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, leading to disenchantment (nibbidā), to fading away (virāga), to cessation (nirodha), to nibbāna.

The faults I see with the article is that it reduces these deep expositions on the dhamma dealing with supramundane right view which has the deathless as its destination, to mundane right view which only swells the cemeteries. The abhidhamma style oversimplification of these expositions brings the article to an anticlimax when the following question is posed:

Quote
At this point it may also be relevant to investigate who the recipient of the kammic fruits of one´s wholesome and unwholesome deeds of body, speech or mind, is. The doer himself, or others? The answer is found in the following stock-phrases in the discourses:  “I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.” (AN 10.48 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/10/sut.an.10.v05#._pabbajitaabhiṇhasuttaṃ))

“Beings are owners of their actions, student, heirs of their actions; they originate from their actions, are bound to their actions, have their actions as their refuge. It is action that distinguishes beings as inferior and superior.” (MN 135 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/mn/sut.mn.v13#._dantabhūmisuttaṃ))

Perhaps the sutta translations used in the article, some of which betray a bias towards traditional commentaries, contributed to the oversimplification of these deep suttas. For example, in the translation of kammanirodha sutta used in the article, a "doer" is arbitrarily inserted into the phrasing where a "doer" is not necessary in the context of the kammanirodha sutta. Thus, the right phrasing of the dhamma is lost, leading to the wrong interpretations and the posing of mundane questions that does not fit the context. The Buddha's exposition of the four noble truths in the kammanirodha sutta is in the context of supramundane (lokuttara) right view, where the four noble truths are phrased in terms of the six sense bases, bodily, verbal and mental actions, liberation attainment through cessation of bodily, verbal and mental action, and path. There need not be any reference to a "doer" in this formulation. As the Buddha makes clear in the moḷiyaphagguna sutta (SN 12.12 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/sn/12/sut.sn.12#._moḷiyaphaggunasuttaṃ)) and acelakassapa sutta (SN 12.17 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/sn/12/sut.sn.12#._acelakassapasuttaṃ)), such a question as to whether the doer himself or others are the recipients of the kammic fruits of one´s wholesome and unwholesome deeds of body, speech or mind, is not a valid question in this context. Thus, the answer the article offers is not a valid answer and sides with the eternalists view, misrepresenting the Buddha's supramundane right view teachings in this context. In this context, the correct question to pose is, "with what as condition does the results of kamma come to be?" And the proper answer is "with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, holding;  with holding as condition, being; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, physical suffering, mental suffering and despair. Such is the origination of this whole mass of suffering".

After this anticlimax, the article continues to diverge from the deep suttas it quotes at the beginning, straying further and further from the well proclaimed Dhamma into abhidhamma doctrine, before arriving at the conclusion that the actions of arahants can be designated as kamma or kiriya. As the following quotes from the suttas will show, Bhante's speculations about the arahant at the time of his or her [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact to justify this conclusion is [might be] unwarranted papañcā.

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants" view by way of exposing unwarranted papañcā
Let's subject the following statement by Bhante to further scrutiny in light of the suttas to show that it is unwarranted papañcā.

Quote
Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

From the sekha sutta (SN 48.53 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/sn/48/sut.sn.48#._sekhasuttaṃ)), the Buddha explains one beyond training as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, asekho bhikkhucha indriyāni pajānāti.
‘Cakkhundriyaṃ, sotindriyaṃ, ghānindriyaṃ, jivhindriyaṃ, kāyindriyaṃ, manindriyaṃ—’imāni kho cha indriyāni sabbena sabbaṃsabbathā sabbaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhissanti, aññāni ca cha indriyāni na kuhiñci kismiñciuppajjissantī’ti pajānāti.
Ayampi kho, bhikkhave, pariyāyo yaṃpariyāyaṃ āgamma asekho bhikkhuasekhabhūmiyaṃ ṭhito ‘asekhosmī’ti pajānātī”ti.

Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is one beyond training wisely understands the six faculties—the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty, the mind faculty. He wisely understands: ‘These six faculties will cease completely and totally without remainder, and no other six faculties will arise anywhere in any way.’ This too is a method by means of which a bhikkhu who is beyond training, standing on the plane of one beyond training, wisely understands: ‘I am one beyond training.’”

So we see that the time of the arahant's exhaustion of life, the breakup of the body, is the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact. The kotthita sutta (AN 4.173 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/04/sut.an.04.v18#._mahākoṭṭhikasuttaṃ)) makes it clear that any speculations with reference to the cessation of the six sense bases of contact is unwarranted papañcā.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā atthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā natthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā atthi ca natthi ca aññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā nevatthi no natthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti.

"Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is something else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is nothing else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is both something else and nothing else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is neither something else nor nothing else,' one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated."

]yāvatā, āvuso, channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ gati tāvatā papañcassa gati; yāvatā papañcassa gati tāvatā channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ gati. channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā papañcanirodho papañcavūpasamo”ti.

Friend, as far as the range of the six bases of contact extends, just so far extends the range of papañcā. As far as the range of papañcā extends, just so far extends the range of the six bases for contact. With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact there is the cessation of papañcā, the subsiding of papañcā."

From this sutta, we see that even the very notion that the arahant has some all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind (a something else) left to be abandoned at the time of the [final] cessation of the six bases of contact, or half a kammanirodha to be attained at the time of the [final] cessation of the six bases of contact, is a proliferation of that which ought not be proliferated, an unwarranted papañcā.

Given the qualities of the well proclaimed Dhamma as: 'The Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Blessed One (svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo), directly visible [in this very life] (sandiṭṭhiko), not involving time (akāliko), [inviting one to] come and see (ehipassiko), leading onwards (opanāyiko), to be personally experienced by the wise (paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī), the arahant need not wait for the breakup of the body before attaining the cessation of all action. So we see that there is no justification for re-defining the Buddha's definition of kammanirodha to fit the kamma-of-arahant thesis.

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view by way of exposing a self-contradiction

The following analysis will show that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

Now let's analyze Bhante's main argument for justifying the kamma-of-arahants view. Commenting on khammanirodha sutta in the article, Bhante writes the following:

Quote
When he says “Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.”, this refers to kamma in its active/productive form, as the action that leads to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future.

Here, Bhante again introduces an abhidhamma style re-definition of "new kamma" to fit his thesis. Bhante re-defines new kamma as active/productive kamma that leads to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future, implying that there exists non-active/non-productive kamma that does not lead to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future.

To clarify the distinction between the Buddha's definition of "new kamma" and Bhante's re-definition, I quote the relevant section of the khammanirodha sutta (SN 35.146 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/sn/35/sut.sn.35#._kammanirodhasuttaṃ)) as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā,
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is new kamma?
O bhikkhus, whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.
This is called, O bhikkhus, new kamma.

From this translation, we get a very clear and concise definition of "new kamma" from the Buddha as whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.

Now, let's analyze Bhante's re-definition of "new kamma" to show that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

In the nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/06/sut.an.06.v06#._nibbedhikasuttaṃ)), the Buddha defines kamma as cetanā, saying "It is volition (cetanā), O bhikkhus, that I call kamma. For having intended, one acts by body, speech, or mind".

In the upādānaparipavatta sutta (SN 22.56 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/sn/22/sut.sn.22#._upādānaparipavattasuttaṃ)), the Buddha defines saṅkhārā in panca upādānakhanda as cetanā:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā — rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandhasañcetanā, rasasañcetanā, phoṭṭhabbasañcetanā, dhammasañcetanā. ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

“And what, O bhikkhus, are saṅkhārā?

There are these six classes of volition — volition regarding forms, volition regarding sounds, volition regarding odours, volition regarding tastes, volition regarding tangibles, volition regarding dhammas. These, O bhikkhus, are called sankhārā.

In the khajjanīya sutta (SN 22.79 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/sn/22/sut.sn.22#._khajjanīyasuttaṃ)), the Buddha explains why saṅkhārā are called saṅkhārā as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Kiñca, bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha
Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.

And why, O bhikkhus, do you call them saṅkhārā?
‘They precondition the conditioned,’ O bhikkhus, therefore they are called saṅkhārā.

Kiñca saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti? Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti. Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.

And what is the conditioned that they precondition? 'They precondition conditioned form as form; they  precondition conditioned feeling as feeling; they  precondition conditioned perception as perception; they precondition conditioned saṅkhārā as saṅkhārā; they precondition conditioned consciousness as consciousness'. ‘They precondition the conditioned,’ O bhikkhus, therefore they are called saṅkhārā.

From this definition, since saṅkhārā precondition saṅkhārā upādānakkhandhā themselves, we see that saṅkhārā leads to origination of saṅkhārā. But what about the other four saṅkhatā that saṅkhārā preconditions (form, feeling perception and consciousness)?  These also being upādānakkhandhā, we know they are anicca, saṅkhata, paṭicca samuppannaṃ, and since all saṅkhārā are anicca (sabbe saṅkhārā anicca), these four saṅkhatā are also saṅkhārā, thus we can conclude that saṅkhārā lead to origination of saṅkhārā.

But do there exist saṅkhārā that lead to the cessation of saṅkhārā? From aggappasādā sutta (AN 4.34 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/04/sut.an.04.v04#._aggappasādasuttaṃ)), the Buddha declares:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

yāvatā, bhikkhave, dhammā saṅkhatā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati.

“To whatever extent there are dhammas that are conditioned, the noble eightfold path is declared the foremost among them".

We know that the noble eightfold path lead to stilling of all saṅkhārā (sabbasaṅkhārasamatho), and since the noble eightfold path is saṅkhatā, and saṅkhatā are saṅkhārā, thus saṅkhārā also lead to the cessation of saṅkhārā.

So we can conclude that, saṅkhārā either lead to the origination of saṅkhārā or to the cessation of saṅkhārā.

The question may arise as to whether there could be saṅkhārā that neither lead to origination of saṅkhārā nor to the cessation of saṅkhārā. The answer is that there cannot be, as such a saṅkhārā will be asaṅkhata (nibbāna), a self-contradiction. A "black is white" principle.

Thus, if kamma is cetanā and cetanā is a type of saṅkhārā, and saṅkhārā has only two possibilities, either leading to the origination of saṅkhārā or to the cessation of saṅkhārā, then we must conclude that kamma, being a type of saṅkhārā can only have two possibilities as well, either leading to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma. No other possibilities can exist. So far, so good, but the analysis to reach this conclusion may appear too technical, so let's see if this conclusion that kamma either leads to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma has any backing in the suttas.

From the paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/03/sut.an.03.v11#._paṭhamanidānasuttaṃ)), we know that any action born of greed, hatred or delusion is designated as kamma that leads to the origination of kamma (kammaṃ kammasamudayāya saṃvattati), whereas any action born of non-greed, non-hatred or non-delusion is designated as kamma that leads to the cessation of kamma (kammaṃ kammanirodhāya saṃvattati).

So from this sutta, we find only two possibilities for kamma as well: kamma either leads to the origination of kamma or leads to the cessation of kamma. A non-active/non-productive kamma that neither leads to origination of kamma nor cessation of kamma will be kammanirodha, a plain self-contradiction, similar to the contradiction that saṅkhārā is asaṅkhata (nibbāna) . A "black is white" principle.

From this analysis, we see that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction. One will need the ability to believe that "black is white" in order to justify the view that arahant's actions by body, speech and mind can be designated as kamma.

I hope that this direct approach has successfully repudiated the "kamma of arahants" view with the following good reasons:

Let's look at the question Bhante attempted to answer in his article to see if this repudiation can provide the proper answer:

Quote
However, it is not said in AN 3.34 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/an/03/sut.an.03.v04#._nidānasuttaṃ) that an Arahant´s deeds cannot be called “actions” (lit.
kamma
) anymore in a conventional sense. Otherwise, how else should one call them? The Theravāda tradition has chosen to use “kiriya” instead.

In light of this repudiation, the answer is to use the very term that the Buddha uses himself to designate the action of arahants, namely kammanirodha.

Why does any attempt to designate the actions of an arahant as kamma lead to self-contradictions, or contradictions with the Buddha's teachings of the four noble truths, or unwarranted papañcā when subjected to scrutiny in light of the saddhamma? Because as the Buddha declares in the alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/mn/sut.mn.v03#._alagaddūpamasuttaṃ)), "O bhikkhus, the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus is clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork". With the well proclaimed dhamma being clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork, any interpretations of the well proclaimed Dhamma  based on arisen "other insignificant teachings" (uppannaṃ parappavādaṃ), like the abhidhamma doctrine, is easily exposed as patchwork when subjected to analysis. Such wrong interpretations are bound to lead to inconsistencies in the well proclaimed Dhamma which is clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork. 

At the end of the exposition of the kammanirodha sutta, because of its profundity, the Buddha admonishes the bhikkhus to resort to root of trees and empty huts to cultivate jhāna, that they may attain arahantship through the full comprehension of old kamma, the abandoning of new kamma, the realization of liberation through the cessation of kamma, thus bringing the noble eightfold path to fulfillment by development.

But why does the Buddha ask the disciples to go through all the trouble of resorting to root of trees and empty huts to cultivate jhāna in order to understand kamma, something which is nowadays easily understandable according to the abhidhamma doctrine, with re-defined sutta terms like kiriya, kammavipāka, etc and new abhidhamma terms like paṭisandhi viññāṇa, khandhaparinibbāna, abyākata, etc? If the abhidhamma can attempt to simplify the Buddha's atakkāvacara teachings to make the teachings understandable enough for commentators to write their commentaries about the arahants as if they are experts on the workings of kamma, then why can't we also simplify the Buddha's atakkāvacara teachings to our level of understanding so we can write our own commentaries about the arahants? After all, to our naked eyes (if we are fortunate enough to bless our eyes on the sight of an arahant), it looks like the arahant performs actions with body, speech or mind just like us, so why not designate those actions as kamma or kiriya, just like we designate our own actions? Why not simplify the dhamma to fit our understanding based on our own experiences, even if our experiences are not in the range of the arahant's experience? Why keep the arahant a mystery if he eats and walks and talks and feels like us?

Perhaps Venerable Nandaka's simile from the nandakovāda sutta (MN 146 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/mn/sut.mn.v15#._nandakovādasuttaṃ), Venerable Bodhi's translation) can help us to appreciate how the looks of an arahant could be deceiving.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife, and having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”

“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife, without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, and would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife, and having cut, severed, and carved all this away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”

“Sisters, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘The inner mass of flesh’ is a term for the six internal bases. ‘The outer hide’ is a term for the six external bases. ‘The inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments’ is a term for delight and lust. ‘The sharp butcher’s knife’ is a term for noble wisdom—the noble wisdom that cuts, severs, and carves away the inner defilements, fetters, and bonds.

I think it is quite fitting to end this repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view with a few verses from the suttas, extolling the arahant as one beyond the reach of language:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“Beings percipient of what can be expressed
Become established in what can be expressed.
Not fully understanding what can be expressed,
They come under the yoke of Death.

But having fully understood what can be expressed,
One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’
For that does not exist for him
By which one could even speak of him.
Quote from: samiddhi sutta (SN 1.20 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/sn/01/sut.sn.01#._samiddhisuttaṃ) excerpt, Ven. Bodhi's translation

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Saṅkhāya  vatthūni  pamāya  bījaṃ,
sineham  assa  nānuppavecche,
 sa  ve  munī  jātikhayantadassī,
takkaṃ  pahāya  na  upeti  saṅkhaṃ.

"Having  surveyed  the  field  and  measured  the  seed,
He  waters  it  not  for  moisture,
That  sage  in  full  view  of  birth's  end,
Lets  go  of  logic  and  comes  not  within  designation."
Quote from: munisutta  (Snp 1.12 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/kn/snp/sut.kn.snp.1#._munisuttaṃ)), adapted from Ven. Nanananda's translation

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

sa sabbadhammesu visenibhūto
yaṃ kiñci diṭṭhaṃ va sutaṃ mutaṃ vā
tameva dassiṃ vivaṭaṃ carantaṃ
kenīdha lokasmi vikappayeyya

Unopposed to all things he has become
whether those seen and heard or those thought about.
The one seeing just that, faring openly,
by what in the world could you make him out?
Quote from: suddhaṭṭhaka sutta (Snp 4.4 (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut/kn/snp/sut.kn.snp.4#._suddhaṭṭhakasuttaṃ) excerpt)

/me : most styling, approaches... added/edited for more proper accessibility, links added... Start to more relativate addressings with putting word in {} brackes in addition. Commentary can be mostly accessed by adding _att at the end of the url (before #)

Johann (admin-cloth using): some tag-errors corrected
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on December 04, 2019, 12:12:59 PM
/me  Sadhu Bhante, Nyom Ebo, for compassion and uphold patient effort. My person still weak, has just started to make all a little more proper accessable. Maybe Nyom likes to continue, if inspired, and also to get given sources better known.
Just two things, my person thought possible good to always consider: As soon as having Arahat as object, neither is, not is not, actually fails and both turnings, up, down, are "Objectivication". Second, this being underlying reason as well, there is actually no real different between kusala and kamma for ending of kamma, but "just" the underlying "objectivity", say "ārammaṇa" which counts also for the two "different" right views. Maybe Thunderheads (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.102.than_en.html) gives different access. Please keep also in mind that an No-sekha-asekha is still able to act grave faulty based on his perceptions, often in war with windwills tracing them as monsters. In same way an non-sekha-asekha can easy hit his mother, father.... still very traumaticed.

Looking foreward on reading pleasing and especially releasing giving intos here. Mudita.
Title: Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on April 07, 2022, 06:50:14 AM
It's worthy to read the whole, Nyom {removed name}1 and also good to let Arahats tell of 'their' range. Over all it's about the different in deeds.