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Talkbox

Like when enter or join, a shrine, another's sphere, or back: good for greating, bye, veneration, short talks, quick help. Some infos on regards .


2024 Mar 24 19:07:11
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ 😌

2024 Mar 24 14:13:29
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 24 06:25:25
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha by following the conducts of the Arahats.

2024 Mar 23 13:11:16
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_

2024 Mar 21 01:07:56
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Mar 21 00:28:58
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 20 14:25:49
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 20 12:06:29
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Mar 20 11:24:06
blazer: Good morning everyone  _/\_

2024 Mar 18 21:42:50
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 18 19:43:59
Dhammañāṇa: Mudita, Nyom.

2024 Mar 18 19:36:35
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Undertaking this Sila day at my best.

2024 Mar 18 06:17:10
Dhammañāṇa: Those who undertake the Sila day today: may it be of much metta.

2024 Mar 18 02:16:41
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 17 21:09:31
អរិយវង្ស: 🚬🚬🚬

2024 Mar 17 06:30:53
Dhammañāṇa: Metta-full Sila day, those after it today.

2024 Mar 17 00:02:34
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 11 09:16:04
Dhammañāṇa: Once totally caught by google, AI and machines, every door has been closed for long, long term.

2024 Mar 11 09:14:04
Dhammañāṇa: People at large just wait that another would do his/her duty. Once a slight door to run back, they are gone. By going again just for debts, the wheel of running away turns on.

2024 Mar 10 18:59:10
Dhammañāṇa: Less are those who don't use the higher Dhamma not for defilement-defence, less those who don't throw the basics away and turn back to sensuality "with ease".

2024 Mar 10 06:51:11
Dhammañāṇa: A auspicious new-moon Uposatha for those observing it today.

2024 Mar 09 06:34:39
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed New-moon Uposatha, and birth reminder day of a monarchy of wonders.

2024 Mar 08 21:39:54
Dhammañāṇa: The best way to keep an Ashram silent is to put always duties and Sila high. If wishing it populated, put meditation (eating) on the first place.

2024 Mar 03 21:27:27
Dhammañāṇa: May those undertaking the Sila day today, spend it off in best ways, similar those who go after the days purpose tomorrow.

2024 Feb 25 22:10:33
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 24 06:42:35
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Māgha Pūjā and Full moon Uposatha with much reason for good recallings of goodness.

2024 Feb 24 01:50:55
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 23 06:39:57
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Feb 23 00:19:58
blazer: Taken flu again... at least leg pain has been better managed since many weeks and it's the greatest benefit. Hope Bhante Dhammañāṇa is fine  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 01:06:43
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 00:02:37
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 17 18:47:31
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of todays Sila-day.

2024 Feb 17 18:46:59
Dhammañāṇa: Chau Marco, chau...

2024 Feb 16 23:32:59
blazer: Just ended important burocratic and medical stuff. I will check for a flight for Cambodia soon  _/\_

2024 Feb 09 16:08:32
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 12:17:31
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 06:42:17
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed New moon Uposatha and last day of the Chinese year of the rabbit, entering the Year of the Naga wisely.

2024 Feb 02 21:17:28
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 02 19:53:28
Dhammañāṇa: May all have the possibility to spend a pleasing rest of Sila day, having given goodness and spend a faultless day.

2024 Jan 26 14:40:25
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 25 10:02:46
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Full moon Uposatha.

2024 Jan 11 06:37:21
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 07 06:31:20
Dhammañāṇa: May many, by skilful deeds,  go for real and lasting independence today

2024 Jan 06 18:00:36
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 16:57:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 12:33:08
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila-day, full of metta in thoughts, speech and deeds.

2023 Dec 30 20:21:07
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 27 23:18:38
Dhammañāṇa: May the rest of a bright full moon Uposatha serve many as a blessed day of good deeds.

2023 Dec 26 23:12:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 24 16:52:50
Dhammañāṇa: May all who celebrated the birth of their prophet, declaring them his ideas of reaching the Brahma realm, spend peaceful days with family and reflect the goodness near around them, virtuous, generously.

2023 Dec 20 21:36:37
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 20 06:54:09
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by conducting in peacefull manners.

2023 Dec 12 23:45:24
blazer:  _/\_

2023 Dec 12 20:34:26
Dhammañāṇa: choice, yes  :)

2023 Dec 12 13:23:35
blazer: If meaning freedom of choice i understand and agree

2023 Dec 12 12:48:42
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 12 06:13:23
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a great New Moon Uposatha, following the conducts of the Arahats.

2023 Dec 10 12:51:16
Dhammañāṇa: The more freedom of joice, the more troubled in regard of what's right, what's wrong. My person does not say that people at large are prepared for freedom of joice even a little.

2023 Dec 10 10:59:42
blazer: Hope they eat more mindfully than how they talk. It is clear for the gross food, we had more than a talk about this topic. I have put so much effort in mindful eating at the temple, but when i was back i wanted more refined food. I was used to get a choice of more than 10 dishes every day

2023 Dec 10 06:57:44
Dhammañāṇa: A person eating on unskilled thoughts will last defiled, Nyom. Gross food does nothing for purification at all.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:58
blazer: I've had a couple of not nice experiences with monks that were not so pure in my opinion. They surely eat far better than me at temple.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:41
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 09 11:38:36
Dhammañāṇa: Spiritual prostitution, just another way of livelihood.

2023 Dec 05 20:59:38
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 27 14:47:22
អរិយវង្ស:   _/\_ _/\__/\_

2023 Nov 27 05:41:32
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Anapanasati- Fullmoon and reflect the goodness of Ven Sāriputta as well today.

2023 Nov 20 19:18:13
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 20 18:20:15
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 20 02:48:24
Moritz: Hello _/\_ Still possible to join: An-other Journey into the East 2023/24

2023 Nov 18 13:55:11
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 12 01:09:01
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2023 Nov 12 00:45:21
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 19:42:10
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 07:17:02
Dhammañāṇa: សិលា​នាំ​ទៅ​រក​ឯករាជ្យ​នៃ​ជាតិ! សូមឱ្យមនុស្សជាច្រើនប្រារព្ធទិវាឯករាជ្យ(ពី)ជាតិ។

2023 Nov 09 07:06:56
Dhammañāṇa: Sila leads to independence of Jati! May many observe a conductive Independence day.

2023 Nov 07 00:54:02
Dhammañāṇa: Nyoum

2023 Nov 07 00:39:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 15:47:51
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 12:21:27
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila observation day today.

2023 Oct 30 15:17:36
Dhammañāṇa: It's common in to give up that what's given to do assist me toward release, common that seeking security in what binds.

2023 Oct 30 13:22:27
អរិយវង្ស: ព្រះអង្គ :) កូណាលុប delta chat ហើយ :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 23 18:56:09
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 22 20:36:01
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of this Sila-day.

2023 Oct 19 20:31:12
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom Sreyneang

2023 Oct 15 07:07:01
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 14 06:53:21
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a New moon Uposatha based on goodwill for all, find seclusion in the middle of family duties.

2023 Sep 29 07:35:30
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:23:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:03:11
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha and begin of the ancestor weeks by lived metta and virtue: lived gratitude toward all being, toward one self.

2023 Sep 22 22:07:43
Dhammañāṇa: If no rush turn toward reducing sensuality and make Silas the top of priority, it's to fear that an Atomic conflic will be chosen soon, in the battle of control of the "drugs".

2023 Sep 22 14:59:39
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 22 06:35:51
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Uposatha Observance on this Sila-day, by conducting similar the Arahats.

2023 Sep 16 19:29:27
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 16 19:29:13
blazer: Hello everyone! I've just come back home. I had a long trip and no sleep for more than 30 hours, but currently feel quite good. I've had a good experience, i'm happy. I've found out much inspiration and many ideas about the training and the holy life. I'll recollect and write about them as soon as i've taken some rest. Hope to find you all well and in good health  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 15 05:25:24
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 14 21:09:49
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of New moon Uposatha today (later as no connection before).

2023 Sep 10 01:55:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_?

2023 Sep 09 18:52:54
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 09 18:52:28
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 08 06:19:20
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by maintaining goodwill toward all, not only by deeds and speech, but with nine factors, incl. a mind full of metta.

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Author Topic: A Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha? Bodhisattva ein Sanghamitglied?  (Read 5311 times)

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Offline Dhammañāṇa

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  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
Hier ein spezielles Here a special

Kann ein Bodhisttva ein Sanghamitglied sein?

Gestern vor dem Einschlafen ist mir diese knifflige und vielleicht provozierende "Frage" in den Geist gekommen. Wenn wir davon ausgehen, daß die Sangha aus den vier Paaren (den acht Personen) besteht, ist es mit großer Wahrscheinlichkeit nicht möglich, daß ein "klassischer" Bodhisattva (so wie es breit erzählt wird - einer der zum Wohle aller Wesen im Samsara verweilt) nie Teil der Sangha werden kann.
Nimmt man Bodhisatta - ein Wesen das nach Befreiung strebt -  ist er/sie im Gegensatz, schon mit diesem Streben als Mitglied der ersten Person (vorausgesetzt er/sie weiß wo nach er strebt) als Teil der noblen Sangha anzusehen.

Sicherlich Stoff für eine ausgiebige Diskussion und Stoff zum nachdenken. Freue mich über eure Gedanken und ev. Erklärungen dazu.


Is it possible that a Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha?

Yesterday bevor I felt asleep a finicky and maybe provocing "question" arose in my mind. If we regard the Sangha containing the four pairs (the eight persons), it seems to be impossible that a classical Bodhisattva (like it is told broadly - someone who desires to dwell in Samsara for the well-being of all beings) might be part of the Sangha.
If we take the Bodhisatta - a Being which strives for liberation - he/she is in the opposite to the first idea within the desire for this already a member of the first person (assumed that he/she knows what he is striving for) and already part of the noble Sangha.

Of course stuff for a huge discussion and stuff to think about. Would be great if you share your thoughts and maybe also an explaining.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 07:03:19 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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The idea of "Bodhisattva Path" was coined by Maitreya-natha in his Bodhisattva-Bhumi, and then imported into Theravada by Dhammapala in his "Treatise on the Paramis".

So the person who follows such a path follows the Maitreya-natha, since Buddha never taught such things. "Bodhisattvism" has nothing to do with following the teaching of a Buddha.

"Bodhisattvas" are historically known to refuse any substantial development of wisdom, since this could make them stream-enterers, bound to achieve Nibbana in seven lives or less, and this wouldn't be sufficient for these "Bodhisattvas" to fulfill their nonsensical wows to save all beings.

Offline Dhammañāṇa

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  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
The idea of "Bodhisattva Path" was coined by Maitreya-natha in his Bodhisattva-Bhumi, and then imported into Theravada by Dhammapala in his "Treatise on the Paramis".

So the person who follows such a path follows the Maitreya-natha, since Buddha never taught such things. "Bodhisattvism" has nothing to do with following the teaching of a Buddha.

"Bodhisattvas" are historically known to refuse any substantial development of wisdom, since this could make them stream-enterers, bound to achieve Nibbana in seven lives or less, and this wouldn't be sufficient for these "Bodhisattvas" to fulfill their nonsensical wows to save all beings.

Die Idee eine "Bodhisattva Pfades" wurde durch Matitreya-natha und seinem Bodhisattva-Bhumi gepräget und dann von Dhammapala mit seiner "Abhandlung über die Paramis" in den Theravada importiert.

Eine Person, die solch einem Pfad folgt, folgt dem Maitreya-natha Pfad, da Buddha niemals solche Dinge lehrte. "Bodhisattanismus" hat nicht mit dem folgen der Lehren Buddhas zu tun.

"Bodhisattvas" sind historisch bekannt, jede Art der handfesten Entwicklung von Weisheit abzulehnen, da dies sie zu Stromerreichern machen könnte und sie daran binden würde innerhalb von sieben Existenzen oder weniger Nibbana zu erreichen und dies wurde diesen Bodhisattvas nicht ausreichen, ihren Sinnloses Gelübte alle Wesen zu retten, zu erfüllen.


Danke für die geradlinige Antwort, würde ich auch so sehen, wenn gleich man etwas vorsichtig sein muß, da wir (der eine oder andere) in gewisser Weise auch alle noch Bodhisattvas sind und von der Welt noch nicht loslassen. Wir hätten ja wenig zu tun, unsere Sachen wären alle getan, wäre das nicht die liebe "Buddhanatur".

Ich denke, daß man das Thema etwas genauer behandeln muß, dreht sich ja heute im "Buddhismus" alles und fast jeder um das Bodhisattvatum.
Da ich mit den Worten und der Geschichte nicht so bekannt bin, was genau ist "Matitreya-natha", was ist „Bodhisattva-Bhumi“ (Bhumi meine ich zukennen, im Kambodschanischen gibt es das Wort Pum für Dorf oder Platz und bedeutet so etwas wie Versammlung), und wer ist "Dhammapala" und was ist seine "Abhandlung über die Paramis"?

Wenn wir den Bodhisattvaweg als eine Erkenntnisweg (siehe z.B. Wege zur Eintracht- sangha vatthu ), Weg der Einsicht und des lernens sehen, dann ist er ganz natürlich ein Weg den die ersten Person oder eine, die die erste Person anstrebt, durchzumachen hat und daher ganz bestimmt Anteil des buddhistischen Weges ist. Das Schaffen der Grundlagen durch parami-arbeit. Nicht jedem ist es in einer einzigen Existenz möglich den achtfachen Pfad direkt zu gehen, aber jedem die Grundlagen dafür zu verbessern.

Sicherlich kann man sich auch auf diesem Weg verlieren, aber ohne ihn gegangen zu sein, wird man den achtfachen Pfad wohl nicht finden.

"Das sind die zwei Weisen, die zur Eintracht führen: Die gute Weise, die hilfreich und zuträglich ist und die beste Weise, die zur Befreiung und zum Heile führt. Von diesen beiden Weisen schließt die letztere die erstere in sich, setzt sie voraus, kann ohne sie nicht bestehen."

Was genau ist nun der Unterschied zwischen Bodhisatta Pfad und Bodhisattva pfad?

Ich würde hier sogar mal behaupten, daß jeder, jeder, der noch Zweifel an Vinaya (= Weg zur Erfüllung der Paramis) hat, den heiligen Pfad noch nicht geht oder gehen kann ein Bodhisattva ist, den Bodhisattva Weg geht, und noch kein Schüler.


Thanks for the straight forward answer, I would also see it like that, but we need to be carefull a little as we (the one or other) are in some ways also Bodhisattvas and not able to let go of the world yet. We would have less to do, all things would have been done, would there be the beloved “Buddhanature”.

I guess it is nessesary to tread this issue more exactlly as today the „Buddhism“ turns nearly exclusively around „Bodhisattvanism“
As I am not so familiar with the words and history, what exactly is "Matitreya-natha", what is „Bodhisattva-Bhumi“ (I guess I can identify Bhumi, there is a Cambodian word “Pum” which is used for village or place, meaning something like assembling) and wo is "Dhammapala" and what his "Treatise on the Paramis"?

If we regard the Bodhisattva Path as a path of lerning and understanding (look for example Ways to benevolence - sangha vatthu , way of insight, than it is very naturally that the first person or the person who desires to gain the fist person, needs to go this way and with it, it is actually the Buddhist way. The creation of condition through paramis work. Not everybody is able to join the walk on the Noble Eightfold Path within the present existence, but everybody is able to better his conditions within this aspiration.

Of course one easy can also get lost on this way, but without having walked this way, one would not find to the Eignfold Path.

"There are the two kinds leading to benevolence: The good kind, which is helpful and conducive and the best kind, which leads to liberation and peace. Of this two kinds, the last includes the first, is dependend on it, can not exist without it. (quick free translation)

So what exactlly is the different between Bodhisatta path and Bodhisattva path?

I would even say that everybody, everybody who has still doubt on Vinaya (=way for fulfillment of paramis) or is not able to take the holy path as a whole is a Bodhisattva, walks the Bodhisattva path and not a real disciple yet.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 03:39:02 PM by Johann »
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I'm not a Bodhisatta, since I won't be a Buddha.

I don't appreciate "Buddhanature" since this is a later invention which has nothing to do with Buddha's teaching.

Maitreya-natha was the author who invented the "Bodhisattva's Path":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya-n%C4%81tha
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37687/Asanga

Dhammapala was a Theravadin commentator who borrowed in his work some parts of "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" by Maitreya-Natha:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html

Buddha Gotama never taught to become a Bodhisatta - that would be nonsensical; he taught the way to cessation of suffering.

The word 'parami' starts to occut only in the later texts, such as Cariyapitaka and Buddhavamsa. Buddha himself never told to develop them. IMHO, it is simply unrealistic to transform personal qualities without samadhi and vipassana.

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I'm not a Bodhisatta, since I won't be a Buddha.
Ich bin kein Bodhisatta, da ich kein Buddha werden würde.

Isn't one meaning, the "real" meaning of the word "Bodhisatta" a being that strives for awakening (bodhi)? From that point, I don't think that your are not a Bodhisatta, exept you would have already reached the path and tasted the fruit of awakening. As a member of the noble Sangha (8 persons), to come back to the OP question, it's from my opinion risky to say that it can include a Bodhisatta.

Ist nicht die wahre Bedeutung des Wortes "Bodhisatta" ein Wesen, das nach Erwachen (bodhi) strebt? Aus dieser sicht kann ich mir jetzt nicht vorstellen, daß du kein Bodhisatta bist, ausgenommen du hast bereits den Pfad erreicht und die Frucht des Erwachend gekostet. Als ein Mitglied der Noblen Sangha, um auf das eingehende Thema zurückzukommen, ist es aus meiner Sicht riskant zu meinen, das diese einen Bodhisatta beinhalten kann.



I don't appreciate "Buddhanature" since this is a later invention which has nothing to do with Buddha's teaching.

Ich schätze dieses "Buddhanatur" nicht, da es eine spätere Einbringung war, die nichts mit Buddhas Lehren zu tun hat.

Please don't get me wrong, it was really not about personal situations but a general discussion. Of course it was a little provoking.
To the point, whether we appreciate "Buddhanature" or not, in its subtle meaning it's actually the believe in something inherent and as long as we would not have gained the path - appreciate or not - we actually believe in this "Buddhanature", it's just that we give it a different name. Mostly "I ..."

Bitte versteh mich nicht falsch, es geht wirklich nicht um personliche Situationen aber um eine generelle Diskussion. Sicherlich war es etwas provozierend.
Zur Sache, ob wie nun "Buddhanatur" schätzen oder auch nicht, in seiner subtile Bedeutung ist es doch der Glaube an etwas innewohnendes und solange wir den Pfad nicht erreicht haben - ob nun geschätzt, oder nicht - glauben wir an diese "Buddhanature und es ist nur so, daß wir dem einen anderen Namen geben.  Meistens "Ich ..."




Maitreya-natha was the author who invented the "Bodhisattva's Path":

Maitreya-natha ist der Autor, der den "Bodhisattva Pfad" erfunden hat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya-n%C4%81tha
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37687/Asanga

Dhammapala was a Theravadin commentator who borrowed in his work some parts of "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" by Maitreya-Natha:

Dhammapala war ein theravadischer Kommentator, der sich Teile seiner Arbeit aus dem "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" von Maitreya-Natha geborgt hat.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html

Thanks for the share, I will read it.

Buddha Gotama never taught to become a Bodhisatta - that would be nonsensical; he taught the way to cessation of suffering.

Buddha Gotama hat niemals gelehrt ein Bodhisatta zu werden, das wäre unlogisch. Er lehrte den Weg der Auflösung des Leidens.

Yes, of course, even I do not really know what he actually taught, it would not make much sense. It would be like if a father who has gone through hardship, teaches the son to go thought the same hardship even he already knows the easy way.

Ja sicher, auch wenn ich nicht wirklich weis, was Buddha nun tatsächlich gelehrt hat, würde das nicht viel Sinn machen. Es wäre, als ob ein Vater der durch viel Mühen gegangen ist, seinem Sohn lehren würde, durch die selben Mühen zu gehen, auch wenn er schon den leichten Weg weis.


The word 'parami' starts to occut only in the later texts, such as Cariyapitaka and Buddhavamsa. Buddha himself never told to develop them. IMHO, it is simply unrealistic to transform personal qualities without samadhi and vipassana.

Das Wort "parami" taucht erst in späteren Schriften, wie Cariyapitaka und Buddhavamsa auf. Buddha selbst erklärete nie diese zu entwickeln. Aus meiner Sicht, ist es einfach unrealistisch seine persönlichen Qulitäten ohne samadhi und vipassana zu transformieren.

It might be that the word "parami" is not mentioned in the texts, but if you change the word in conditions or prerequisites to gain the first little understanding or right view is the actually nearly the whole teaching especially for layman. One can try "samadhi" or "vipassana" for eons, if he has not developed the prerequisites. It will not easy be samma samadhi, of course it could be samadhi but still attached to the world. To be provoking again: "bodhisatta samadhi" to come back to the OP.

I guess it would be good to be not to fast. Its a question that moves the whole "Buddhist" world.

Maybe that is good for explaining (even its a later "development"):

Milindapañha 3.1.3. "Timely fighting" (I try to find a english version)

got it:


3. The king said: 'You told me, Nâgasena, that your renunciation was to the end that this sorrow might perish away, and no further sorrow might spring up 2.'

[66] 'Yes, that is so.'

'But is that renunciation brought about by previous effort, or to be striven after now, in this present time?'

The Elder replied: 'Effort is now concerned with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me an illustration 3.'

p. 102

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when you feel thirst that you would set to work to have a well or an artificial lake dug out, with the intention of getting some water to drink?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when you feel hungry that you set to work to have fields ploughed and seed planted and crops reaped with the intention of getting some food to eat?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when the battle is set in array against you that you set to work to have a moat dug, and a rampart put up, and a watch tower built, and a stronghold formed, and stores of food collected? Is it then that you would have yourself taught the management of elephants, or horsemanship, or the use of the chariot and the bow, or the art of fencing?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do. For it has been thus said, O king, by the Blessed One:

"Betimes let each wise man work out
That which he sees to be his weal!
Not with the carter's mode of thought, but firm p. 103
Let him, with resolution, step right out.
As a carter who has left the smooth high road,
And turned to byways rough, broods ill at ease 1--
(Like him who hazards all at dice, and fails)--
So the weak mind who still neglects the good,
And follows after evil, grieves at heart,
When fallen into the power of death, as he,
The ruined gamester, in his hour of need 2."

[67] 'Very good, Nâgasena.

Es mag sein, daß das Wort "Parami" nicht in den Texten auftaucht, aber wenn wir das Wort mit dem Wort Voraussetzungen oder Grundlagen austauschen, um das erste kleine Verständnis zu bekommen oder rechte Sichtweise, ist es tatsächlich so, daß fast die gesamten Lehren davon handeln, speziell für Laien. Da kann einer für Eons sich in Samadhi oder Vipassana versuchen, wenn er die Grundlagen dafür nicht entwickelt hat. Es wird nicht leicht samma samadhi sein, sicher wird es samadhi sein, aber stets anhaftend an die Welt - um noch einmal Provozierend zu sein: "Bodhisatta samadhi"

Ich denke es ist gut nicht zu übereilig zu sein. Es ist eine Frage, die die ganze "buddhistische" Welt bewegt.

Vielleicht ist das ganz gut zur Erklärung (auch wenn es etwas später aufgekommen ist):


Quote from: www.palikanon.de

Mil. 3.1.3. Zeitiges Kämpfen

 

Der König sprach: "Du sagtest mir da, o Herr, eure Weltentsagung habe zum Ziele, dieses gegenwärtige Leiden eben schwinden und kein anderes (neues) Leiden mehr aufkommen zu lassen."

"Ja, o König, das ist das Ziel unserer Weltentsagung."

"Wie nun aber: ist dieses Ziel das Ergebnis früherer Anstrengung, oder hat man wohl, wenn die Zeit herangekommen ist, immer noch zu kämpfen?"

"Ist einmal die Zeit herangekommen, o König, so hat das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Erläutere mir dies!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn du Durst hast und Wasser zu trinken wünschtest, wirst du da wohl zu diesem Zwecke erst einen Brunnen oder eine Zisterne graben?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr!"

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat, sobald die Zeit erst einmal herangekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Gib mir ein weiteres Gleichnis!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn du Hunger hast und zu essen wünschest, wirst du da wohl zu diesem Zwecke es für nötig halten, erst das Feld zu pflügen, den Samen zu säen oder das Getreide herbeischaffen zu lassen?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr."

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat, sobald die Zeit erst einmal herangekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Gib mir noch ein weiteres Gleichnis!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn dir eine Schlacht bevorsteht, wirst du wohl erst dann Festungsgräben ziehen, Wälle aufwerfen, Verschanzungen und Warten errichten, Proviant herbeischaffen und damit anfangen, mit den Elefanten, Pferden und Streitwagen umgehen zu lernen und dich mit Schießen und Fechten vertraut zu machen?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr."

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat sobald die Zeit erst einmal heran gekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt. Auch der Erhabene, o König, sagt:

 

    Was als heilsam man erkannt hat,
    Das verrichte man beizeiten,
    Denke nicht wie manch ein Kärrner,
    Sondern kämpfe klug und stark.
         
    G'rade wie so mancher Kärrner,
    Der, den ebnen Weg verlassend,
    Holperig-schlechtem Pfade folgt,
    Klagt, wenn seine Achse bricht:
         
    So auch klagt, wer's Rechte flicht
    Und wess' Herz dem Bösen folgt,
    In des Todes Schlund geraten,
    Wie der Kärrner über seine Achse."

(S.2.23)

 

"Klug bist du, ehrwürdiger Nāgasena!"




« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 12:03:37 AM by Johann »
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