Post by: gvg on February 16, 2020, 08:00:23 AM
Aramika 
Dieses neue Thema (bzw. diese/r Beitrag/e) wurde aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in How fools in robes justify stealing - Wie Dumme in Roben Stehlen rechtfertigen (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php?topic=630.0), hinzugefügt. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!
The new topic (or post/s) here are originaly from How fools in robes justify stealing - Wie Dumme in Roben Stehlen rechtfertigen (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php?topic=630.0). For eventual additionally information: please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!
Now, 3 years later (after your last comments) what do you have to say about Bhante Samahita, after he has die?
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 16, 2020, 09:15:30 AM
Post by: gvg on February 16, 2020, 09:36:18 AM
I found out about his death just recently, 3 months later. What is shocking is that he committed suicide. If you go to his website https://www.what-buddha-said.net/ you will see a note at the very top saying that he committed suicide (while he was living in Denmark).
So, everybody is scratching their head to understand what happened. I have been reading several post and I noticed that back in 2013, (it looks like you and others) noticed that he was not in good mental health among other concerns.
Specially you, look like you didn't approve several things about him. It even looked personal. No special details have been disclosed about his death other that he committed suicide. There is no details about the cause of death, no autopsy reports.
It also looked that you followed him closely about everything he said or do.
I don't know how much you know him but can you comment about what can cause a monk like Bhante Samahita to commit suicide according to your personal observations?? Was he suffering from some mental illness that he tried to hide?? I have talked with some monks about his death and they said that unless they see an autopsy report, they cannot believe if he really killed himself (because it is "others" who said he committed suicide and in Buddhism everything has to be 100% confirmed). And he never left any note or mention anything about his intentions regarding his suicide.
So, an autopsy report will be needed to confirm or not if he really committed suicide.
Post by: gvg on February 16, 2020, 09:50:10 AM
Just something more to consider. Bhante Samahita reported back in May 2018 that he suffered from a temporary demonic possession. He later created the youtube video trying to explain the demonic possession he suffered. That video called Dhamma on Air #100 is now removed.
The reason why he created this video was because he behaved very strange, sending emails to followers talking about end of the world paranoia or threat or something like that. Those that received those emails will know better because I didn't receive them. There was also emails advertising antivirus software to get protected...
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 16, 2020, 11:09:52 AM
Sure, my person often tries to turn others in better direction. There had been often reasons for suspecting not so pure lifelihood, but he was never really accessible and hided himself.
My person became also attentive in regard his possension and mental instability, tried in may ways to reach out. Sadly he used to live withou, at least good, fellows. Advisory help for Bhante Samahita by fellows needed (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php/topic,205.msg14649.html#msg14649), which started with a warning letter against muslims.
Living my self alone in the forest, such phenomenas of possessions, especially when sick and weak, are know. A further extreme danger is to dwell with faults under Devas, Yakkas, spitits.
My person had no success to trace any fellow of his nor had he success in reaching out after his "disciple", if looking at the linked topic.
How ever, my person wasn't surprised coming known of his forced death.
Bhante used to think and speak different and to act in a third way and used not to live protected by observing Vinaya. Nothing more destructive then not cleaning oneself, bend ones ways, since often it leads to strong Vi-bhava.
May he have gained a blessed birth, metting the Gems, and his Dhamma-giving will be surely having been suppotive.
Once in modern world it's even more difficult to get support from people with right view and really caring does seldom anyone.
May it be also a lesson for many internet-inhabitats, to care first then to simply consume.
Sure he wasn't in the situation to live next careful people, but that is actually normal for monks not so taking on Vinaya, not keeping right lifelihood and engaged in worldly things, social work.
Aside of all, the Buddha often warned his monks not to live remote as long concentration section is not developed, since a person still attached to sense, for him the forest eats off his mind.
Post by: gvg on February 16, 2020, 11:33:18 AM
Why a highly educated monk like him avoided other fellow monks? Even when he was sick, he looked only for the internet followers help instead of looking for help in a monastery where other monks will surely help him.
Can it be excessive pride?
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 16, 2020, 11:42:11 AM
There is no way to access such people, thinking in terms of friends and enemies.
Btw.: My person often advices not to communicate privatly since group is always a good protection for all. To easy defilments can lead to improper things, thinking one is not observed, has control on things.
Post by: gvg on February 16, 2020, 11:45:43 AM
Why do you refer to you as "my person"?
Is it to avoid the "I" because there is no "I" regarding the non-self doctrine?
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 16, 2020, 11:57:35 AM
Post by: gvg on February 16, 2020, 12:49:42 PM
Going back to Bhante Samahita's Death:
Please correct me if I am wrong but I think that you started a topic called:
"How fools in robes justify stealing"
It looked to me that you was referring to Bhante Samahita. Am I right?
Because that was the topic that make me ask you what do you have to say now after his death?
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 16, 2020, 01:07:08 PM
But such is normal as long not gained firm stand on the path, the thinking in terms of rights as well as having still desires for engagements in the world.
As told, his ways havn't been praiseworthy and it's more to doubt that they got better living in outer lands. My person would not like to know much on money and possession issues... He was a very eager and zealous fondraiser with clear strategies. How ever, who would know his understanding at times his body breaked appart.
It would be also waste of time if speculating much about details.
Post by: gvg on February 16, 2020, 03:03:17 PM
Then, bhante with all respect, you did wrong. You should have been more respectful. Going public to reprimand a fellow monk using insults doesn't sound right to me. With that you even made others to follow the same behavior.
Even if your intentions were good, you still called him publicly practically a thief, idiot and a fool. Those are insults Bhante.
For sure Bhante Samahita was not perfect but I think the appropriate way to deal with whatever wrong doing he was doing was to try to first contact him privately.
Then, if he ignores the advice or if he doesn't want to reply to you and want to keep doing wrong, you know very well that you are not responsible for his mistakes.
So, trying to go public in front of millions of people in the internet to reprimand him publicly was very bad from your part. That looks to me like you got frustrated with him because he didn't listen to you and you acted out of anger going public to insult him, making it look like you was doing a good thing warning people about this monk "bad behavior".
Posting about any monk wrong doing, in general, without mentioning names, I think it will be better. So the public can read and learn about proper behavior, he can also read without feeling attacked and you will not be blamed of any wrong doing.
Now that he is gone, who knows if getting ridiculed and insulted publicly was one of the factors that contributed to his suicide. So many things can be a factor for suicide. For sure, failure is a very common factor in society to commit suicide. We don't know, but he may felt he fail as a monk if he is receiving public hard criticism. All these are speculations but the doubt is there. Now, you will need to live with the possibility that you may or may not have made the wrong contribution.
The bhantes that I know here in USA, will never, never, never, never humiliate a fellow monk in front of the world like you did. At least I cannot image that. They have showed me always a good example in proper behavior.
I am sorry if I am misunderstanding but that is the way I am seeing it.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 16, 2020, 03:26:09 PM
May just so far: why shouldn't one not first address direct, of which is also public to be seen. And it's usual, that very public people wouldn't be touched privat.
Was that what you liked to express here public and does it give enough release, Nyom gvg ? May Nyom then use it for her welbeing.
Post by: gvg on February 16, 2020, 04:26:17 PM
Bhante you can't use Wrong Speech and Action to correct somebody. If you was right what did you gain at the end?
This is not about me who has to come here to "release" something in public. We don't need to understand you, (to excuse you). You too are also responsible for your actions. I will only comment on what you posted in that occasion because it looked specially bad for you to do it in that way. If I start checking what you post and criticize you, then I will be doing the same thing you did.
The Sri Lanka bhantes I follow here in the USA, were very respectful about Bhante Samahita. They didn't hide what they consider he did wrong but they didn't post anything negative in the internet. They don't engage in fights when they disagree because each person is responsible for his/her own actions. They give good advice for everybody or privately if requested.
May you be well, happy, comfortable and peaceful
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 16, 2020, 04:50:11 PM
If one does not depend, then it's possible to speak frank.
And if you ideas would be right most of the Tipitaka would be wrong speech. To investigate it for yourself, don't you fear to critices a monk here right in the moment? If not good investigated, it can be of great disadvantage, or at least to learn.
If wishing to listen to Dhamma, it would require to set yourself right, Nyom.
It's, how ever, praiseworthy that Nyom wishes to advice to something that might be thought as better for my person. And it's also praiseworthy to get other involved public, at least from my person view, if it isn't for disadvantage for Nyom, of which she actually thinks it is, yet still make it as well. Good, bad? Do it like most and the Sri Lanken monk... diversive speech in the backyards for gain and taking side?
Again: take care of people who wish you to be pulled into privat first.
Post by: gvg on February 17, 2020, 06:47:07 AM
Maybe I misunderstood but is it not me who try to gain by criticize you? I am not a public figure Bhante and I don't claim to know the teachings of the Buddha by the letter or teach others like a monk will usually do. I am unknown in social media.
"don't you fear to critices a monk here right in the moment?"
Absolutely not. Why I have to fear to criticize you here in this moment if you have done the same on that occasion with Bhante Samahita and I am not using bad words??
See how things change when the tables turn around? You don't like people to tell you what they think you are doing wrong by criticizing a monk with insults. Also, you may even break the rules of the forum. Isn't it? Why the administrator didn't say anything? Is it because people got the idea that you should be free of criticism??
We have to be clear here that I do agree with your intentions to correct a monk that you think is doing wrong but I disagree in the way you did it by going public and using insults against a fellow monk and keep doing it after Bhante Samahita told you do never again comment on his posts. You should have continue to talk in a general way and people will understand and learn because, at the end, what you did, didn't have any effect. Bhante Samahita continue to do what he thought it was right in his mind and people followed him anyway.
Again, Bhante Samahita was responsible for his actions and only he will pay or be rewarded by his actions by his own karma.
I think criticism have to be taken in a humble way. I understand you will never expect a lay person to criticize your actions but if you are right will it be right to have an internet war of monks pointing fingers at each other, calling each other names, insults, etc for the sake of Buddhism??? What kind of example will be that? I think other monk should not criticize other fellow monk in the way you did it. But they do have to do all they can to contact and correct the monk privately as you say you did it at the beginning.
"If wishing to listen to Dhamma, it would require to set yourself right, Nyom."
I will consult with the Sri Lanka monks about it but I will not tell the whole world if they disagree with you out of respect to you.
If the Buddha disagree with a monk behavior, did he went to each town telling people to not associate with this and that monk by saying that he is a fool, an idiot, a thief, etc publicly?? Did the devas told the whole world when a monk didn't listen or preferred to reprimand the monk privately?
I don't remember a single story where the Buddha go to each town (the equivalent of talking in internet) to tell people not to follow or associate with this monk mentioning him by name and using bad word when referring to the "bad" monk. I do remember hearing stories were he mention what is wrong in general terms which you didn't do. Isn't it?
The Buddhist text mention by name the "bad" monk so others will understand what not to follow but I didn't read anything about the Buddha or Devas taking action by going to town after town to talk about it.
"And if you ideas would be right most of the Tipitaka would be wrong speech"
Can you please quote a sacred Buddha text/story where the Buddha told everybody, mentioning a monk by name, about a bad monk behavior using bad words? So I can see that the way you handle the situation was the right way to do it.
Did the Buddha run away from criticism just because he was the Buddha or accepted debate/criticism? Did he say "Oh don't associate with this and that because he/she criticize me??
I think I have read that he will only talk privately with Ananda or a few monks or only the monks in meetings but he will not tarnish the reputation of a monk with the whole town.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 17, 2020, 06:59:24 AM
That not the Dhamma, actually it's all about right judgement, yet of course not all have the possibility to express right and wrong, still caught in dependency, Nyom gvg .
Maybe Nyom could see right here that her ideas of no-judging are totally hypocritical and don't fit to a normal heart.
If Nyom could give the gift of letting respectfully face and normal name, as a sign of respect toward the Gems, known, it may be of great gain of clearence for here to get instructed on what the Buddha actually talked in regard of critic and how it should be received as most useful gift by wise. For one rejecting advices categorical, such is really a fool.
You are welcome to invite your trusted Venerable here, he is like all most welcome and you could put it also as test, since those who aren't on certain level and firm in their ways aren't capable to enter and dwell here. So also Nyom isn't an ordinary person as such aren't capable to take the invitation.
It requires at least a great portion on generosity, absence of stinginess, a-maccariya.
(My person had seen someone approaching in late Bhantes treat on Dhammawheel some two weeks ago and thought "soon will she approach here", those in bad assosiation firm bound would not, of cause)
Post by: gvg on February 17, 2020, 07:18:05 AM
As I said, I will consult with my Sri Lanka monks about how you handled the problem with Bhante Samahita. I am always open the learn from respected monks.
If you want me to tell you in private what they said, I can do that. They have nothing to gain or look for any fame. They are very humble monks.
Do you want my name and face to be showed? That has nothing to do with the problem. It is a distraction of the real problem we are talking about.
I see that you couldn't find any Buddhist text that supported your position and the dhamma has the last word.
What is really hypocritical? The Sri Lanka Bhantes will tell me.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 17, 2020, 07:26:14 AM
If liking to gain in proper ways and secrure ways, she may now know the necessary prerequisites.
Post by: gvg on February 17, 2020, 07:39:40 AM
It will be a good learning experience.
You shouldn't feel offended anyway.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 17, 2020, 07:45:54 AM
Post by: gvg on February 17, 2020, 07:50:42 AM
Nothing to worry then.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 17, 2020, 08:25:40 AM
Nothing to worry isn't categorical valid, otherwise wise wouldn't give advices, sometimes even hard to take.
Post by: gvg on February 17, 2020, 09:11:31 AM
Bhante, excuse me but maybe again I am misunderstanding you by the way you talk...
If you "isn't aware of any Sri Lankan (seasian) monk of deep respect on Vinaya and the Dhamma but it's usually wordly services and doing favors for gain that monks dwell in outer lands (of course their could be)"
What kind of "favors for gain" do you think these monks are trying to get??? These monks are not looking for fame, etc and I can assure you that they have never asked for anything in exchange for their teachings.
I consider it is inappropriate to say or even insinuate such a thing when you don't know the people you are referring to. Specially, again, it is a negative comment against fellow monks said by another monk.
It will be better not to say anything because you don't know them. Therefore, it sounds to me like you are trying to discredit these monks, "in advance" in a subtle way... So, whatever they say to me, it is not true and only you are right.
Why do you think you have better understanding of the Vinaya/Dhamma than other monks? Wrong again. Isn't it too much pride from your part?
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 17, 2020, 11:17:20 AM
How ever one perceives so he thinks, speaks.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 17, 2020, 01:20:21 PM
* Was it at certain time a monk, even a Bhikkhu who made public critic?
* Was it a justified critic?
* Do I know what was going on?
* Did he actually changed his ways?
* Did he respected or disrespected rebukes?
* Was critice later continued after no success?
* How did he react in exchange?
* Am I possible certain preoccupied and also wrong informed, or just open to what I feel itjs right?
* Do I seek for someone to blame for my lose or maintain something which wasn't the case?
Why my person, althought still not really approaching in proper manner, urges good investigation? Because of the Dhamma, truth of effects, out of simply compassion: AN 4.83: Avannaraha Sutta - Dispraise (https://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.063.uppa_en.html)
Post by: gvg on February 17, 2020, 02:08:12 PM
"before asking another person on advice"
When did I asked you for advice?? I only told you what I think was wrong on your post regarding Bhante Samahita.
"And also good to ask him to answer in ways that could be made public and not just a personal favor"
When did I asked you for a personal favor??
Not true.
Just in case when I talk privately with the monks it means talking with them in the temple, in an open area or where there is people around but not necessarily they know what I am talking with the monk/monks. Many people talk like that with the monks for advice, etc. and people respect their privacy, not gathering around to know personal issues unless it is something open for discussion, which also often happen to share with everybody in the temple.
"Was it at certain time a monk, even a Bhikkhu who made public critic?"
Bhante you keep going around and around and around the same thing that it is not the problem. I agree with a Bhikkhu that make a public critic but what I disagree is what I already told you several times. And it is the words you used when you criticized Bhante Samahita in public, by name and because I consider that calling him fool, idiot thief, etc or encourage others to follow the same line it doesn't sound right to me. That is all.
You have not explained if insults are ok when a monk doesn't listen if that is the case that is why I asked you for a quote that I didn't get.
When I told you about the bad words you are not saying a single word, instead you keep talking about the critique, which is not the problem. But I already told you I will consult with the Sri Lanka bhantes about it. I will see them in a week.
I will not make an investigation about every single point in the list because It may take a lot of time and that why I have the best advice from the Sri Lanka monks to guide me.
"Do I seek for someone to blame for my lose or maintain something which wasn't the case?"
Which lose? Who lost? You, me, him?? Are you referring to me?
You can keep arguing forever if you want but you will waste your time Bhante because I will check with the Sri Lanka Bhantes about it and let you know in private or in public, whatever you prefer.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 17, 2020, 02:57:23 PM
Nobody could help her out of grasped movie, behind giving some advices, for to let go one has to look and "not sure".
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 17, 2020, 03:11:05 PM
Post by: gvg on March 13, 2020, 11:41:48 AM
I have consulted with the Sri Lanka monks that I highly respect about your post. These monks are Mayaha Thero senior monks with more than 50 years as monks and they are surely your seniors.
I asked two questions which are:
1 - Is is correct for a monk to criticize publicly another monk using insulting words with the intention of correcting him from some supposedly wrong doing?
And they agree with me that a monk first need to contact the monk that is doing wrong and talk with him privately.
If that monk doesn't correct his behavior, then the monk that wants to correct the other monk has to stop right there because each person is responsible for his own actions and because the monk that wants to correct the other monk has done his best and he also has to respect the limits.
I will add here that in the monks rules, it is strictly prohibited for a monk to use insulting words against another monk.
https://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/vinaya/227/92pa.htm#ch-----2
pācittiya 2
"omasavāde pācittiyaṃ."
"Not to insult another bhikkhu. If, by means of abusive words, a bhikkhu verbally offends another bhikkhu, he commits a pācittiya."
That is why criticizing with insults was wrong specially because Bhante Samahita was a senior monk and the lower ranking monk has to respect him and never, never attempt to offend a senior monk in public.
Therefore, according to the vinaya rules, the monk who has use verbally offensive words against another monk has COMMITTED A PACITTIYA and he has to confess that offense in his own sangha for his own good.
2 - Is it correct for a lay person to criticize the actions of a monk, if the lay person consider that the monk has done something wrong?
And once again, the monks agree that there is nothing wrong, if a lay person (according to his/her understanding) tells a monk if he is doing something wrong.
Curiously, in the temple, like if the monk was reading my mind and before I asking anything, he started telling a story about a lay woman who appeared to have some mind reading powers. It just happened that there was a monk who each time was thinking wrongly, the women was able to read his mind and warned him about his bad thoughts. Then, the monk didn't like the fact that this woman was able to correct him each time this problem happened, so he went to the Buddha and complained about the woman, telling the Buddha that he can no longer stand being in that forest.
Curiously, the Buddha didn't see any wrongdoing from the part of the woman and ordered the monk to go back to the forest.
So, this story answer your question when you asked me if I was not afraid of criticizing a monk because you also didn't like it to be criticized by a lay person.
If you still don't recognize that you have done wrong. Then, show your post to your senior monks in your own sangha and I hope they can give you a good advice.
I wish you the best.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on March 13, 2020, 12:46:25 PM
So out of compassion and not a sample to follow, as well, here:
Let my person ask now for Nyom gvg s next meeting with her trusted Monks:
* whether the senior Bhikkhus, in the case my person would be a Bhikkhu, did a transgression in as far as they told about a fault of another Bhikkhu toward a lay person, unless they are not given by the Sangha to do so
* whether they did even a more grave transgression, in the case the younger Monk isn't a "Bhikkhu".
* whether intention plays a role in regard of the transgression.
* whether it's given to talk with woman on such matters in even extended form, possible alone.
* What the kammical consequences for someone would be who criticises an even Noble Fellow (or monk) possible wrongly.
Then, as they lead Nyom right into the sphere of hell (as my person has no contact of this gain-desiring monks, doing favours for angry laywoman), ask them about the results if criticising wrongly, or even criticising (as such could be the case as well) a Noble One. For it is simply foolish and how ever old they might be, the Venerables have to be called fools, to tell a lay person that there is nothing wrong in criticising a monk, categorically.
As told already, there is nothing more dangerous as to associate with fools.
And then let my person add that an undertaking of wishing to split the Sangha, although just as a lay person, if touching case Noble ones, could also easy lead to a downfall transgression, one of the six kammas which lead straight to hell and hinder from what ever attaining upwardly in this existence. That was told for the case in which one might not have asked honestly but with certain deceitful intentions and then carries things in between.
So again, it's total foolish to believe that critic is bad and praise is good, but depends on sacca. Hopefully Nyom can see the hypotactic within all that and may she gives what ever good causes to get never in association with fools.
And yes, it's important to reflect that there are monks who can read mind and know actually well what will be next, is hidden, can be changed at this time, in this circumstances.
At least, best Greetings to the Venerables and good to tell them, that if letting go of desire for gain, it's easier to associate with monks, doesn't need improper dependency and association with lay people and would be not only for the own welfare but also for a long lasting of the Sangha. But if monks are hanging like calves on the breast of a cow, fear of lacking nutrition through lack of doing favours, that it's difficult for them, inwardly and outwardly as well.
As the Sublime Buddha also often accounted, even for ones disciples, when they act very foolish, the teacher(s) have to be called fools, because they didn't taught well.
Just for the case the Venerables would seek for solving transgressions and might not know: important for confessing a transgression is to find someone pure in this regard (not with same transgression) and it's total fine if finding a very youngster to do so. And it's also good not to receive an amend, if having actually the same fault carry with oneself, since such would then possible not really purify the one who makes confession or increases his wrong views.
And good of course if Nyom, rather than to run hidden around and make possible unskillful undertakings by breaking peoples apart, would be if she tries to lay out a bridge and tell the Venerables that they are more then welcome to make use of all possibilities here. Sure, such could be of cause strong again ones personal interests, could it? But there would lie a big change for grow.
And to give the most "funny" info, since Nyom said "I will not investigate in detail", the critic toward the late Bhikkhu was made by a formal lay person at this time, who invited a Bhikkhu, translated his teachings and, to take care on law and his reputation, removed stolen pictures in the translations, was therefore rebuked by him, aside that he criticised his wish to share teachings foremost to older and lonely people, since that would bring the best results and gains...
It's really foolish to act in such ways, Nyom, and it's even more foolish to take not only side but side with fools and what is called "notorious wrong does, not able to be corrected".
Whether it's a blessing to associate with fools or get disappointed of what is good to gain disappointment, that lies in the sphere of Nyoms judgement and ability to see through the net of defilements and desires.
For those who could gain health:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
Avannaraha Sutta: Dispraise
“Bhikkhus, one possessing four qualities is deposited in hell as if brought there. What four? (1) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one speaks praise of one who deserves dispraise. (2) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one speaks dispraise of one who deserves praise. (3) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one believes a matter that merits suspicion. (4) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one is suspicious about a matter that merits belief. Possessing these four qualities one is deposited in hell as if brought there.
“Bhikkhus, one possessing four [other] qualities is deposited in heaven as if brought there. What four? (1) Having investigated and scrutinized, one speaks dispraise of one who deserves dispraise. (2) Having investigated and scrutinized, one speaks praise of one who deserves praise. (3) Having investigated and scrutinized, one is suspicious about a matter that merits suspicion. (4) Having investigated and scrutinized, one believes a matter that merits belief. Possessing these four qualities one is deposited in heaven as if brought there.”
It's hard to give more then this for ones long term happiness and not sure if another is capable to take and grow with it.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on March 13, 2020, 01:40:06 PM
So, this story answer your question when you asked me if I was not afraid of criticizing a monk because you also didn't like it to be criticized by a lay person.
And this, just to address it, would be a total wrong perception, for one who dislikes critic such is indeed a fool (for a Bhikkhu it would be an offence if disrespecting critic by lay people). And Nyom has in no way to fear any disadvantages from my persons side, whether her acting was actually foolish or not. Atma isn't capable to bear things like even ill-will and beings do wrong simply out of not-knowing of which they wouldn't if they know. Nevertheless, such wouldn't not protect from kammic consequences and that is the most important matter here: investigating what actually dives one and not out of reason the topic is called "Assimilating of Bhante Samahita's death, decay of beloved" since such, if done wrong, leads only to more suffering and to really foolish actions.
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on March 13, 2020, 03:12:30 PM
Quote from: Johann
Quote from: Erik Kaplun (https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/37194/should-any-monastic-be-considered-a-noble-one/37200#37200) on BSEShould any monastic be considered a noble one?
Should every monastic unconditionally be considered a noble one, and treated as such, to abstain from bad kamma at the very least? or are lay people, and other monastics, free to use personal judgement based on the personal qualities, or lack thereof, of a given monastic?
If the latter, then am I free to verbally express my concern/blame, without producing excessively bad kamma? For example due to not agreeing with the way the Dhamma is presented, or timing thereof, or not agreeing with the arrogant attitude of the monk, or pointing out flaws in the behavior/methods/views of that monk?
Taken that a good friend would give you advices to abstain from things which could harm you or of bad results, what advices would you give, being in such a possition, knowing that cause and effect isn't a democratical thing, or a "liberal"? Would you send him in an easy fatal lost "war" to win his favor, give into possible defilements?
While it is a very seldom gift of being well-wished adviced, even if disliking, think on you as a child and your parents, it's not something you are obligated to and so worthy to think clear why wishing to do, honest.
Just a sample, not to present something, but to have a possibility to think maybe more from outside, as life actually runs different as thought, as just one to give: Assimilating of Bhante Samahita's death, decay of beloved (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,9746.msg21997.html#msg21997)
For on ordinary person it's really hard to keep preoccupations, feeling... separated, not to speak of understanding of what possible just known from far.
So it's really not an easy issue if serious wishing to build up Nissay with those headed toward liberation, not even if after good, firm, intellectual understanding.
May all take care and often remember their parents hardship to even letting have grown till here.
For all that reason, since the old, people are adviced to focus their dedications toward the Sangha and others then the most think, the Buddha gave also to householders advices of how to react on "troublesome" monks, since thinks aren't for sure! And the Buddha knew his Pappenheimer:Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
...Anāthapiṇḍika the householder heard that, “They say that the Kosambī monks, quarrelsome, makers of strife, makers of disputes, makers of rumors, makers of issues in the Saṅgha, are coming to Sāvatthī.”
Then Anāthapiṇḍika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, “Lord, they say that the Kosambī monks, quarrelsome, makers of strife, makers of disputes, makers of rumors, makers of issues in the Saṅgha, are coming to Sāvatthī. How am I to behave with regard to these monks?”...The Discussion of the Eighteen Grounds (https://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv10/mv.10.06.khem_en.html)
Old lay people in tradition countries, wouldn't advice or support one, nearly generally, especially if having been monks, but of course they had no google and suttacentral-monks, which might be useful or will most eternal cut of the stream of those rest heading already outward. So again, right critic leads to heaven (even if just by ones thought) and wrong likewise to hell. So the proverbs of binding a knot into your tongue aren't out of reason, one can be sure, and for good deeds one does not need to become a "killer", not even one who struggles outwardly long. In both directions, and the rest stays open for real compassion and seldom left paramis one could have.
And to add an important issue, kamma, and that's what the most here is about, doesn't care whether you then tell wrong just your friend, spread it secretly or anonymously... a larg bypass downstairs as well, by especially "smart".
There should be no issue better to simply direct the case direct, and if no "success", one can deside to left another off for one self, not even just at least.
(Note that this isn't given for trade, exchange, stacks or what ever binds, but for freedom from it.)