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Vihara => Open Vihara - [Offenes Vihara] => Topic started by: Dhammañāṇa on November 06, 2019, 08:51:31 PM

Title: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 06, 2019, 08:51:31 PM

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema (bzw. diese/r Beitrag/e) wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Medical plants, allowed medicine-Pflanzenheilmittel, erlaubte Medizin [bhesajja] (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php?topic=7927.0), hinzugefügt. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!
The new topic (or post/s) here are originaly from Medical plants, allowed medicine-Pflanzenheilmittel, erlaubte Medizin [bhesajja] (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php?topic=7927.0). For eventual additionally information: please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!
[Original post:]


pañcabhesajja
Probably because from milk deriving products have been (and are still) merely unknown in Cambodia as well Thailand (aside of milk and condense milk in cans, those are well known), the Khmer Tipitaka translates (http://accesstoinsight.eu/km/tipitaka/vin/mv/vin.mv.06.01) ទឹកដោះរាវ១ ទឹកដោះខាប់១ ប្រេង១ ទឹកឃ្មុំ១ ស្ករអំពៅ១, raw milk, condense milk, oil, honey, sugar can "instead" of (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv06/mv.06.01.khem_enpi.html) ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey; sugar/molasses; sappi navanītaṁ telaṁmadhuṁ phāṇitaṁ
Quote from: PTS
1) Sappi (p. 680) Sappi Sappi (nt.) [Vedic sarpis] clarified butter, ghee D i.9, 141, 201; A i.278; A ii.95, 207 (˚tela); iii.219; iv.103; Sn 295 (˚tela). Dhs 646; J i.184; ii.43; iv.223 (˚tela); Vin i.58, etc. -- ˚maṇḍa [cp. BSk. sarpimaṇḍa Divy 3 etc.] the scum, froth, cream of clarified butter, the best of ghee D i.201; A ii.95; VvA 172; Pug 70; its tayo guṇā Miln 322.

 1) Navanīta (p. 348) Navanīta Navanīta (nt.) & nonīta [cp. Ved. navanīta] fresh butter Vin i.244 (cp. gorasa); D i.201; M iii.141; Pv iii.55 (nonīta); Pug 69, 70; Miln 41, Dhs 646, 740; DhA i.417; PvA 199.

1) Tela (p. 307) Tela Tela (nt.) [from tila] sesamum -- oil (prepared from tila seeds), oil in general (tela=tilatelādika DA i.93): used for drinking, anointing & burning purposes Vin i.205, 220, 245, etc.; A i.209, 278 (sappi vā t. vā); ii.122≈(tattena pi telena osiñcante; punishment of pouring over with boiling oil); J i.293; ii.104; Pv iv.148 (tiṇena telaŋ pi na tvaŋ adāsi: frequent as gift to mendicants)

1) Madhu (p. 519) Madhu Madhu [cp. Vedic madhu, Gr. me/qu wine, Lith. medùs honey, midùs wine, Ohg. metu=Ger. met wine. Most likely to root *med to be full of juice: see under madati] honey J i.157 sq.; iv.117; Dh 69 (madhū vā read as madhuvā)

1) Phāṇita (p. 478) Phāṇita Phāṇita (nt.) [cp. Epic Sk. phāṇita] 1. juice of the sugar cane, raw sugar, molasses (ucchu -- rasaŋ gahetvā kataphāṇitaŋ VvA 180) Vin ii.177; D i.141; Vv 3525; 404; J i.33, 120, 227; Miln 107; DhA ii.57. phāṇitassa puṭaŋ a basket of sugar S i.175;

Also the Khmer Saddanukrama translates it as "clear water from breast" and then, as thought, counts the different cans, bottles... to describe it (as thought). Those things are ever unknown in SEAsia, not using/producing milk at all traditionally.
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja)
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 10:52:16 AM
Maybe Bhante Ariyadhammika likes to share of what he has heard or learned here, out of compassion.

Going further, it seems that paya (PTS: Paya (nt.) [Ved. payas, nt, of pī] milk, juice J i.204; vi.572.) might be used as milk. Yet payopānaṃ is one of the 8 additional juices (incl. some fruits, rice cook water...).

My person wonders about the known similies of the Buddha making Ghee, or getting milk from turning horns, where one could see the use of words denoting what. Bhumija Sutta (http://accesstoinsight.eu/en/tipitaka/sut/mn/mn.126.than), for example.

My person thinks it's an importand topic because many different branches use things from Vinaya to blame or discredited each other not only for good but also for own gain, and "fools" take such Vinaya issues outwardly as measures.
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja)
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 11:11:15 AM
The Bhumija Sutta uses Khīra (PTS: 1) Khīra (p. 237) Khīra Khīra (nt.) [Sk. kṣīra] milk, milky fluid, milky juice Vin i.243; ii.301; M i.343 sq.=A ii.207=Pug 56; A ii.95 (in simile with dadhi, navanīta, sappi, sappi -- maṇḍa)= D i.201; DhA i.98; enumd with dadhi, etc., as one constituent of material food (kabalinkāro ähāro) at Dhs 646=740=875; -- J iv.138 (mātu kh˚); 140; Dh 71=Nett 161; Miln 41; PvA 198 (=sneha, milky juice); VvA 75; DhA i.98 (nirudaka kh˚, milk without water). -- duddha -- khīra one who has milked Sn 18.)

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Seyyathāpi bhūmija, puriso khīratthiko khīragavesī khīrapariyesanaṃ caramāno gāviṃ taruṇavacchaṃ visāṇato āviñjeyya, āsañcepi karitvā gāviṃ taruṇavacchaṃ visāṇato āviñjeyya, abhabbo khīrassa adhigamāya. Anāsañcepi karitvā vālikaṃ doṇiyā ākiritvā udakena paripphosakaṃ paripphosakaṃ pīḷeyya, abhabbo khīrassa adhigamāya. Āsañca anāsañcepi karitvā vālikaṃ doṇiyā ākiritvā udakena paripphosakaṃ paripphosakaṃ pīḷeyya, abhabbo khīrassa adhigamāya. Nevāsaṃ nānāsañcepi karitvā gāviṃ taruṇavacchaṃ visāṇato āviñjeyaya, abhabbo khīrassa adhigamāya. Taṃ kissa hetu: ayoni hesā bhūmija, khīrassa adhigamāya. Evameva kho bhūmija, ye hi keci samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā micchādiṭṭhino micchāsaṅkappā micchāvācā micchākammantā micchāājīvā micchāvāyāmā micchāsatī micchāsamādhino te āsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti. Abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya. Āsañca anāsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti, abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya. Āsañca anāsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti, abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya. Nevāsaṃ nānāsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti, abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya. Taṃ kissa hetu: ayoni hesā1 bhūmija, phalassa adhigamāya.

”Suppose a man in need of milk, looking for milk, wandering in search of milk, would twist the horn of a newly-calved cow. If he were to twist the horn of a newly-calved cow even when having made a wish [for results]… having made no wish… both having made a wish and having made no wish… neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, he would be incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results.

“In the same way, any brahmans or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results]… having made no wish… both having made a wish and having made no wish… neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results.

Quote from: http://accesstoinsight.eu/en/tipitaka/sltp/mn_iii_utf8#pts.138

And condense milk seems to be denoted with nirudaka Khīra, niro (without), daka (water), Khīra (milk).
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja)
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 12:02:21 PM
From milk to Ghee from the Poṭṭhapādasuttaṃ (DN9)

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[440] ‘‘Seyyathāpi, citta, gavā khīraṃ, khīramhā dadhi, dadhimhā navanītaṃ, navanītamhā sappi, sappimhā sappimaṇḍo. Yasmiṃ samaye khīraṃ hoti, neva tasmiṃ samaye dadhīti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na navanītanti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na sappīti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na sappimaṇḍoti saṅkhaṃ gacchati; khīraṃ tveva tasmiṃ samaye saṅkhaṃ gacchati. Yasmiṃ samaye dadhi hoti…pe… navanītaṃ hoti… sappi hoti… sappimaṇḍo hoti, neva tasmiṃ samaye khīranti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na dadhīti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na navanītanti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na sappīti saṅkhaṃ gacchati; sappimaṇḍo tveva tasmiṃ samaye saṅkhaṃ gacchati. Evameva kho, citta, yasmiṃ samaye oḷāriko attapaṭilābho hoti…pe… yasmiṃ, citta, samaye manomayo attapaṭilābho hoti…pe… yasmiṃ, citta, samaye arūpo attapaṭilābho hoti, neva tasmiṃ samaye oḷāriko attapaṭilābhoti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na manomayo attapaṭilābhoti saṅkhaṃ gacchati; arūpo attapaṭilābho tveva tasmiṃ samaye saṅkhaṃ gacchati. Imā kho citta, lokasamaññā lokaniruttiyo lokavohārā lokapaññattiyo , yāhi tathāgato voharati aparāmasa’’nti.
Quote from: http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut.dn.09

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Just as when milk comes from a cow, curds from milk, butter from curds, ghee from butter, and the skimmings of ghee from ghee. When there is milk, it's not classified as curds, butter, ghee, or skimmings of ghee. It's classified just as milk. When there are curds... When there is butter... When there is ghee... When there are the skimmings of ghee, they're not classified as milk, curds, butter, or ghee. They're classified just as the skimmings of ghee.
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/dn/dn.09.0.than_en.html

khīraṃ = milk from the giver
dadhi = curds (cheese)
navanītaṃ = butter
sappi = ghee

So accourding this simile it seems that milk isn't meant in the set of 5 tonics (as the common mahanikaya suggests and Dhammayut and Mahavihara-Mahanikaya oppose). Which is reasonable since milk is actually a "full-food".

Yet still there is the issue of payopānaṃ. let's see if similes can be found. paya meaning also "first".

Tuvaṭṭakasuttaniddeso, kn/man, seems to have even an explaining on all point, yet it would "waste" a precious time if trying to translate without skills, given means:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[159]

Annānamatho pānānaṃ, khādanīyānamathopi vatthānaṃ;

Laddhāna sannidhiṃ kayirā, na ca parittase tāni alabhamāno.

Annānamathopānānaṃ, khādanīyānamathopi vatthānanti. Annānanti odano kummāso sattu maccho maṃsaṃ. Pānānanti aṭṭha pānāni – ambapānaṃ, jambupānaṃ, cocapānaṃ, mocapānaṃ, madhupānaṃ , muddikapānaṃ, sālukapānaṃ, phārusakapānaṃ. Aparānipi aṭṭha pānāni – kosambapānaṃ, kolapānaṃ, badarapānaṃ, ghatapānaṃ, telapānaṃ, payopānaṃ, yāgupānaṃ, rasapānaṃ. Khādanīyānanti piṭṭhakhajjakaṃ, pūvakhajjakaṃ, mūlakhajjakaṃ, tacakhajjakaṃ, pattakhajjakaṃ, pupphakhajjakaṃ, phalakhajjakaṃ. Vatthānanti cha cīvarāni – khomaṃ, kappāsikaṃ, koseyyaṃ, kambalaṃ, sāṇaṃ, bhaṅganti – annānamatho pānānaṃ khādanīyānamathopi vatthānaṃ.

Laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirāti. Laddhāti laddhā labhitvā adhigantvā vinditvā paṭilabhitvā na kuhanāya, na lapanāya, na nemittikatāya, na nippesikatāya, na lābhena lābhaṃ nijigīsanatāya nijigiṃsanatāya (sī. syā.), na kaṭṭhadānena, na veḷudānena, na pattadānena, na pupphadānena, na phaladānena, na sinānadānena, na cuṇṇadānena, na mattikādānena, na dantakaṭṭhadānena, na mukhodakadānena, na cāṭukamyatāya, na muggasūpyatāya na muggasuppatāya (sī.), na muggasūpatāya (syā.), na pāribhaṭayayatāya, na pīṭhamaddikatāya piṭṭhimaṃsikatāya (sī.), piṭṭhimaddikatāya (ka.), na vatthuvijjāya, na tiracchānavijjāya, na aṅgavijjāya, na nakkhattavijjāya, na dūtagamanena, na pahiṇagamanena, na jaṅghapesaniyena, na vejjakammena, na navakammena, na piṇḍapaṭipiṇḍakena, na dānānuppadānena dhammena samena laddhā labhitvā adhigantvā vinditvā paṭilabhitvāti – laddhā. Na sannidhiṃ kayirāti annasannidhiṃ pānasannidhiṃ vatthasannidhiṃ yānasannidhiṃ sayanasannidhiṃ gandhasannidhiṃ āmisasannidhiṃ na kareyya na janeyya na sañjaneyya na nibbatteyya nābhinibbatteyyāti – laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirā.

Na ca parittase tāni alabhamānoti. Annaṃ vā na labhāmi , pānaṃ vā na labhāmi, vatthaṃ vā na labhāmi, kulaṃ vā na labhāmi, gaṇaṃ vā na labhāmi, āvāsaṃ vā na labhāmi, lābhaṃ vā na labhāmi, yasaṃ vā na labhāmi, pasaṃsaṃ vā na labhāmi, sukhaṃ vā na labhāmi, cīvaraṃ vā na labhāmi, piṇḍapātaṃ vā na labhāmi, senāsanaṃ vā na labhāmi, gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ vā na labhāmi, gilānupaṭṭhākaṃ vā na labhāmi, ‘‘appaññātomhī’’ti na taseyya na uttaseyya na parittaseyya na bhāyeyya na santāsaṃ āpajjeyya , abhīrū assa achambhī anutrāsī apalāyī, pahīnabhayabheravo vigatalomahaṃso vihareyyāti – na ca parittase tāni alabhamāno.

Tenāha bhagavā –

‘‘Annānamatho pānānaṃ, khādanīyānamathopi vatthānaṃ;

Laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirā, na ca parittase tāni alabhamāno’’ti.
Quote from: http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/sut.kn.man.14

Laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirā..., No permission to store trade(?), nor (a matter when not getting ?)
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja)
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 12:16:04 PM
What does Bhante Ariyadhammika think (if having the compassion to answer when adressed so directly)? Following the set of 8 juices, found in the Mahavagga, it seems as if milk-drinks are allowed, now my person guesses that the Commentary by Ven. Sariputta, Mahaniddesa (above) might give more clearancy. Does Bhante accept such as Mahaniddesa?
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja)
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 02:06:03 PM
In 6. Surusuruvaggo in the Sekhiyakaṇḍaṃ "milk-drinks/juice" and milk appear together:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Tena samayena buddho bhagavā kosambiyaṃ viharati ghositārāme. Tena kho pana samayena aññatarena brāhmaṇena saṅghassa payopānaṃ paṭiyattaṃ hoti. Bhikkhū surusurukārakaṃ khīraṃ pivanti.
Quote from: http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-rm/tipitaka/vin.pac.sk

As far as understanding: ...at that occassion a certain Brahman gave "milk-products/juice". The bhikkhus smacked and ate noisily while drinking milk.

So it seems, from this, that ilk is incl. in the "category" payopānaṃ, at least in juice form.

That, if concluding here, in most seriouse way, would mean that milk (as raw products, not butter, not ghee) would fall under the group of the eight juices, yet not explicit mentioned as the "for seven days store-able tonics".

This means, as far as seeing, that consume of certain (at least liquidity) milk products are allowed to be consumed on the very day (not stored). Does my persons short investigation here fits to more skilled investigations of the Venerables? Bhante Ariyadhammika ?

That will/would certain "shock" many who had blamed other for consuming milk in the afternoon.

My person has to confess that he might had adopted an incorrect "this is right, all else is wrong view" for longer as well, rebuking many when drinking milk in the afternoon (of course they thought it's one of the five tonics, but only in that far, seemingly wrong, not to speak of storing of low milk-drinks).

Please, if that seems right for all: May the Bhikkhus inform each other and possible ask for pardon. Maybe Bhante Khemakumara or Nyom Cheav Villa could also adress Bhante Indaññāno  and it would be of course a great gift if also Ven. Grandfather Varado helps the community with his prove and investigation. Maybe Lok Ta even feels inspired to illustrate the words eloquent in the IGPT online.

Certain Burmese, Mahavihara, Dhammayut oders might have wrongly rebuked others for longer time, made it an issue for not doing the Uposatha together.

Of course my person does not know of what Commentaries may say, and as told, SEAsian (Thai, Khmer, Lao, Burma?) can not so be used, as people aren't familar with milk and it's products at all (Sri Lankan may have had milk culture).

May the topic help many toward a more refined accumulation of sense of self and even to get ride of on-group-holding-group-accumulating-view till even end off all fine kinds of mānaṃ.
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 04:03:07 PM
To make the different more clear for Venerables of the Khmer land:

ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥

sappi សប្បិ, Ghee (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee), fat, oil from Butter (navanīta)
navanīta នវនីត, បឺរ(ខ្លាញ្ញទឹកដោះគោ), butter (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter) (maybe incl. very fat chees)
tela តេល, ប្រេង ឆា ពី សណ្ដែក ឬ ល្ង (sesame, corn) oil (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_oil)
madhu មធុ, ទឹកឃ្មុំ, honey
phāṇita ផាណិត, ស្ករ, sugar (general)

Now to understand the process from khīra, ខីរ ទឹកដោះ (water from breast) to សប្បិ:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៤៤០] ‘‘សេយ្យថាបិ, ចិត្ត, គវា ខីរំ, ខីរម្ហា ទធិ, ទធិម្ហា នវនីតំ, នវនីតម្ហា សប្បិ, សប្បិម្ហា សប្បិមណ្ឌោ។ យស្មិំ សមយេ ខីរំ ហោតិ, នេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ ទធីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន នវនីតន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បិមណ្ឌោតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ; ខីរំ ត្វេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ។ យស្មិំ សមយេ ទធិ ហោតិ…បេ.… នវនីតំ ហោតិ… សប្បិ ហោតិ… សប្បិមណ្ឌោ ហោតិ, នេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ ខីរន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន ទធីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន នវនីតន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ; សប្បិមណ្ឌោ ត្វេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ។ ឯវមេវ ខោ, ចិត្ត, យស្មិំ សមយេ ឱឡារិកោ អត្តបដិលាភោ ហោតិ…បេ.…
Quote from: ៩. បោដ្ឋបាទសុត្តំ (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-km/tipitaka/sut.dn.09)

khīra ខីរ = ទឹកដោះ milk from the giver
dadhi ទធិ = ទឹកដោះ ទ្បើងឬក្លាយ curds (fresh cheese, yoghurt), see dadhi (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahi_(curd))
navanīta នវនីត = បឺរ butter
sappi ៃសប្បិ= ប្រេង ពី បឺរ ghee

So milk is seemingly not incl. in the 5 tonics.

But there is the list of 8 juices, incl. payopānaṃ, ពយោបានំ, seemingly meaning milk-juice/product and

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៦២៧] តេន សមយេន ពុទ្ធោ ភគវា កោសម្ពិយំ វិហរតិ ឃោសិតារាមេ។ តេន ខោ បន សមយេន អញ្ញតរេន ព្រាហ្មណេន សង្ឃស្ស បយោបានំ បដិយត្តំ ហោតិ។ ភិក្ខូ សុរុសុរុការកំ ខីរំ បិវន្តិ។ អញ្ញតរោ នដបុព្ពកោ ភិក្ខុ ឯវមាហ – ‘‘សព្ពោយំ...
Quote from: ៦. សុរុសុរុវគ្គោ (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-km/tipitaka/vin.pac.sk#៦._សុរុសុរុវគ្គោ)

...seems to support that ខីរ (milk) is incl. in ពយោបានំ (milk-juice/products).

Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammarāgato on November 07, 2019, 04:11:56 PM
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Bhante Johann,

Kana told Bhante Indaññāno about this topic and Bhante said that milk is not pañcabhesajja and then cited the five tonics

 Sappi
 Navanīta
 Tela
Madhu
Phāṇita

wich are allowed to consume in the afternoon.
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammarāgato on November 07, 2019, 04:29:44 PM
To make the different more clear for Venerables of the Khmer land:

ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥

sappi សប្បិ, Ghee (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee), fat, oil from Butter (navanīta)
navanīta នវនីត, បឺរ(ខ្លាញ្ញទឹកដោះគោ), butter (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter) (maybe incl. very fat chees)
tela តេល, ប្រេង ឆា ពី សណ្ដែក ឬ ល្ង (sesame, corn) oil (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_oil)
madhu មធុ, ទឹកឃ្មុំ, honey
phāṇita ផាណិត, ស្ករ, sugar (general)

Now to understand the process from khīra, ខីរ ទឹកដោះ (water from breast) to សប្បិ:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៤៤០] ‘‘សេយ្យថាបិ, ចិត្ត, គវា ខីរំ, ខីរម្ហា ទធិ, ទធិម្ហា នវនីតំ, នវនីតម្ហា សប្បិ, សប្បិម្ហា សប្បិមណ្ឌោ។ យស្មិំ សមយេ ខីរំ ហោតិ, នេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ ទធីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន នវនីតន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បិមណ្ឌោតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ; ខីរំ ត្វេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ។ យស្មិំ សមយេ ទធិ ហោតិ…បេ.… នវនីតំ ហោតិ… សប្បិ ហោតិ… សប្បិមណ្ឌោ ហោតិ, នេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ ខីរន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន ទធីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន នវនីតន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ; សប្បិមណ្ឌោ ត្វេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ។ ឯវមេវ ខោ, ចិត្ត, យស្មិំ សមយេ ឱឡារិកោ អត្តបដិលាភោ ហោតិ…បេ.…
Quote from: ៩. បោដ្ឋបាទសុត្តំ (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-km/tipitaka/sut.dn.09)

khīra ខីរ = ទឹកដោះ milk from the giver
dadhi ទធិ = ទឹកដោះ ទ្បើងឬក្លាយ curds (fresh cheese, yoghurt), see dadhi (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahi_(curd))
navanīta នវនីត = បឺរ butter
sappi ៃសប្បិ= ប្រេង ពី បឺរ ghee

So milk is seemingly not incl. in the 5 tonics.

But there is the list of 8 juices, incl. payopānaṃ, ពយោបានំ, seemingly meaning milk-juice/product and

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៦២៧] តេន សមយេន ពុទ្ធោ ភគវា កោសម្ពិយំ វិហរតិ ឃោសិតារាមេ។ តេន ខោ បន សមយេន អញ្ញតរេន ព្រាហ្មណេន សង្ឃស្ស បយោបានំ បដិយត្តំ ហោតិ។ ភិក្ខូ សុរុសុរុការកំ ខីរំ បិវន្តិ។ អញ្ញតរោ នដបុព្ពកោ ភិក្ខុ ឯវមាហ – ‘‘សព្ពោយំ...
Quote from: ៦. សុរុសុរុវគ្គោ (http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-km/tipitaka/vin.pac.sk#៦._សុរុសុរុវគ្គោ)

...seems to support that ខីរ (milk) is incl. in ពយោបានំ (milk-juice/products).

Bhante Johann,

Kana will show this to Bhante Indaññāno and give the response to it... need some time..
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 04:39:29 PM
Sure, Bhante, lot of patient and always not easy to explain an issue if not well-versed often (if not meeting the right words at right time.

Sadhu for effort.
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammarāgato on November 07, 2019, 05:00:47 PM
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Bhante Johann,

Bhante told, that milk, even when it is mixed with others is not allowed to be consume in the afternoon. Gave a example:

This cup of tea, mixed up with sugar is allowable to consume in the afternoon.

But when this cup of tea is mixed with milk, it is no more allowed to consume it in the afternoon, because it contains milk.

Now Kana has to leave, time for evening puja.
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 05:14:15 PM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Bhante Johann,

Kana told Bhante Indaññāno about this topic and Bhante said that milk is not pañcabhesajja and then cited the five tonics

 Sappi
 Navanīta
 Tela
Madhu
Phāṇita

wich are allowed to consume in the afternoon.

Just to get sure that Bhante Khemakumara understood the issue. The 5 tonics to be stored 7 days are clear: no milk incl. but there is a list of eight juices (like banana, rice water...) to be consumed in the afternoon, also containing payopānaṃ, which is by many dictionaries translated as milk-juice. Also the Thai commentaries justify on it the consume of milk-products in the afternoon (yet not to be stored).

Now my person found this occasion in the Sekhiyas where milk (khira) seems to be incl. in milk-juices (payopānaṃ). When reading the previous post it might be good understood.

Both Bhantes knows my persons approach in regard of milk till just comming accross this.

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Bhante Johann,

Bhante told, that milk, even when it is mixed with others is not allowed to be consume in the afternoon. Gave a example:

This cup of tea, mixed up with sugar is allowable to consume in the afternoon.

But when this cup of tea is mixed with milk, it is no more allowed to consume it in the afternoon, because it contains milk.

Now Kana has to leave, time for evening puja.

That's not the point. It's about one of the 8 juices, payopānaṃ, which seems to be "milk-juice". Bhante knows that my person had no "problem" with no milk till coming across as mentioned.

Maybe ask Bhante of what he thinks payopānaṃ ពយោបានំ means and whether it seems that khira ខីរ is incl. under payopānaṃ when reading:

[៦២៧] តេន សមយេន ពុទ្ធោ ភគវា កោសម្ពិយំ វិហរតិ ឃោសិតារាមេ។ តេន ខោ បន សមយេន អញ្ញតរេន ព្រាហ្មណេន សង្ឃស្ស បយោបានំ បដិយត្តំ ហោតិ។ ភិក្ខូ សុរុសុរុការកំ ខីរំ បិវន្តិ។ អញ្ញតរោ នដបុព្ពកោ ភិក្ខុ ឯវមាហ – ‘‘សព្ពោយំ...
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 05:43:53 PM
A record on the matter in Khmer, Bhante Khemakumara , so that Bhante Indaññāno could understand the point of discussion.

Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 06:08:49 PM
The eight juices are at least mentioned in the Mahanidessa (by Ven. Sariputta) as linked above:

1. kosambapānaṃ
2. kolapānaṃ
3. badarapānaṃ
4. ghatapānaṃ
5. telapānaṃ
6. payopānaṃ
7. yāgupānaṃ
8. rasapānaṃ

Incl. Kola-pānaṃ btw. as well, the coffee drug (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php/topic,7927.msg20368.html#msg20368) of the ascetics.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa



[១៥៩]

អន្នានមថោ បានានំ, ខាទនីយានមថោបិ វត្ថានំ;

លទ្ធា ន សន្និធិំ កយិរា, ន ច បរិត្តសេ តានិ អលភមានោ។

អន្នានមថោ បានានំ, ខាទនីយានមថោបិ វត្ថានន្តិ។ អន្នានន្តិ ឱទនោ កុម្មាសោ សត្តុ មច្ឆោ មំសំ។ បានានន្តិ អដ្ឋ បានានិ – អម្ពបានំ, ជម្ពុបានំ, ចោចបានំ, មោចបានំ, មធុបានំ , មុទ្ទិកបានំ, សាលុកបានំ, ផារុសកបានំ។ អបរានិបិ អដ្ឋ បានានិ – កោសម្ពបានំ, កោលបានំ, ពទរបានំ, ឃតបានំ, តេលបានំ, បយោបានំ, យាគុបានំ, រសបានំ។ ខាទនីយានន្តិ បិដ្ឋខជ្ជកំ, បូវខជ្ជកំ, មូលខជ្ជកំ, តចខជ្ជកំ, បត្តខជ្ជកំ, បុប្ផខជ្ជកំ, ផលខជ្ជកំ។ វត្ថានន្តិ ឆ ចីវរានិ – ខោមំ, កប្បាសិកំ, កោសេយ្យំ, កម្ពលំ, សាណំ, ភង្គន្តិ – អន្នានមថោ បានានំ ខាទនីយានមថោបិ វត្ថានំ។

លទ្ធា ន សន្និធិំ កយិរាតិ។ លទ្ធាតិ លទ្ធា លភិត្វា អធិគន្ត្វា វិន្ទិត្វា បដិលភិត្វា ន កុហនាយ, ន លបនាយ, ន នេមិត្តិកតាយ, ន និប្បេសិកតាយ, ន លាភេន លាភំ និជិគីសនតាយ និជិគិំសនតាយ (សី. ស្យា.), ន កដ្ឋទានេន, ន វេឡុទានេន, ន បត្តទានេន, ន បុប្ផទានេន, ន ផលទានេន, ន សិនានទានេន, ន ចុណ្ណទានេន, ន មត្តិកាទានេន, ន ទន្តកដ្ឋទានេន, ន មុខោទកទានេន, ន ចាដុកម្យតាយ, ន មុគ្គសូប្យតាយ ន មុគ្គសុប្បតាយ (សី.), ន មុគ្គសូបតាយ (ស្យា.), ន បារិភដយយតាយ, ន បីឋមទ្ទិកតាយ បិដ្ឋិមំសិកតាយ (សី.), បិដ្ឋិមទ្ទិកតាយ (ក.), ន វត្ថុវិជ្ជាយ, ន តិរច្ឆានវិជ្ជាយ, ន អង្គវិជ្ជាយ, ន នក្ខត្តវិជ្ជាយ, ន ទូតគមនេន, ន បហិណគមនេន, ន ជង្ឃបេសនិយេន, ន វេជ្ជកម្មេន, ន នវកម្មេន, ន បិណ្ឌបដិបិណ្ឌកេន, ន ទានានុប្បទានេន ធម្មេន សមេន លទ្ធា លភិត្វា អធិគន្ត្វា វិន្ទិត្វា បដិលភិត្វាតិ – លទ្ធា។ ន សន្និធិំ កយិរាតិ អន្នសន្និធិំ បានសន្និធិំ វត្ថសន្និធិំ យានសន្និធិំ សយនសន្និធិំ គន្ធសន្និធិំ អាមិសសន្និធិំ ន ករេយ្យ ន ជនេយ្យ ន សញ្ជនេយ្យ ន និព្ពត្តេយ្យ នាភិនិព្ពត្តេយ្យាតិ – លទ្ធា ន សន្និធិំ កយិរា។

ន ច បរិត្តសេ តានិ អលភមានោតិ។ អន្នំ វា ន លភាមិ , បានំ វា ន លភាមិ, វត្ថំ វា ន លភាមិ, កុលំ វា ន លភាមិ, គណំ វា ន លភាមិ, អាវាសំ វា ន លភាមិ, លាភំ វា ន លភាមិ, យសំ វា ន លភាមិ, បសំសំ វា ន លភាមិ, សុខំ វា ន លភាមិ, ចីវរំ វា ន លភាមិ, បិណ្ឌបាតំ វា ន លភាមិ, សេនាសនំ វា ន លភាមិ, គិលានបច្ចយភេសជ្ជបរិក្ខារំ វា ន លភាមិ, គិលានុបដ្ឋាកំ វា ន លភាមិ, ‘‘អប្បញ្ញាតោម្ហី’’តិ ន តសេយ្យ ន ឧត្តសេយ្យ ន បរិត្តសេយ្យ ន ភាយេយ្យ ន សន្តាសំ អាបជ្ជេយ្យ , អភីរូ អស្ស អឆម្ភី អនុត្រាសី អបលាយី, បហីនភយភេរវោ វិគតលោមហំសោ វិហរេយ្យាតិ – ន ច បរិត្តសេ តានិ អលភមានោ។

តេនាហ ភគវា –

‘‘អន្នានមថោ បានានំ, ខាទនីយានមថោបិ វត្ថានំ;

លទ្ធា ន សន្និធិំ កយិរា, ន ច បរិត្តសេ តានិ អលភមានោ’’តិ។
Quote from: http://accesstoinsight.eu/cs-km/tipitaka/sut.kn.man.14
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 07, 2019, 06:26:16 PM
The distinction:

Pānānanti aṭṭha pānāni – ambapānaṃ, jambupānaṃ, cocapānaṃ (manu say banana), mocapānaṃ, madhupānaṃ (honey drink) , muddikapānaṃ, sālukapānaṃ, phārusakapānaṃ.

Aparānipi aṭṭha pānāni – kosambapānaṃ ?, kolapānaṃ (drinks from kola fruit, similar coffee), badarapānaṃ, ghatapānaṃ, telapānaṃ (oily drinks), payopānaṃ, yāgupānaṃ (water from rice cooking), rasapānaṃ (flavored water).

Khādanīyānanti piṭṭhakhajjakaṃ [gross food], pūvakhajjakaṃ, mūlakhajjakaṃ, tacakhajjakaṃ, pattakhajjakaṃ, pupphakhajjakaṃ, phalakhajjakaṃ.

My person can not identify all for now. But good if that would be clear, incl. payopānaṃ.

(Btw. Bhante Khemakumara , may Bhante keep in mind that Bhante Indannano  as well as all the Ven. before in Cambodia didn't not know any about milk product and ways of them at all beside of the cans of Haltbarmilch and Condense milk sold, so sure not easy. Not even know people in this area of Asia how to get milk from a cow or other animals. This milk cans came known maybe in the 1930-40th short before the Tipitaka was translated. Such as cheese maybe in the 60-70th, short before war and after transl. war mainly finished)
Title: To much, to less... The four Condition that kamma can ripe
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 08, 2019, 06:28:38 AM

Aramika   *

Ein oder mehrer Beiträge wurden hier im Thema abgeschnitten und damit in neues Thema "To much, to less... The four Condition that kamma can ripe (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php?topic=9523.0)" eröffnet, dem angehäng.
One or more posts have been cut out of this topic here. A new topic, based on it, has been created as "To much, to less... The four Condition that kamma can ripe (http://forum.sangham.net/index.php?topic=9523.0)" or attached there.
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 08, 2019, 03:16:09 PM
My person just received a call by Bhante Indaññāno who patiently and generously tried to investigate the matter of "milk" khīra and "milk-drinks" payopānaṃ.

Investigating the matters known under this names it worked out that payopānaṃ seemingly is means "milk-drink/products" and it's also reported that dadhi ("yogurt") is a very common tonic in the afternoon in Sri Lanka. In Cambodia payopānaṃ is only known as a liquid mix of rice-water with sugar and milk for for sick.

So as it seems there should be no fear to take products mixed with milk, based on milk, even is not having reached the state of butter or ghee in the afternoon when sick. Again, it's not to be seen as one of the five store-able tonics but under the group mentioned sorted in the Mahanidessa.

My Person would be pleased if the Ven. Sirs with more access to so desired scholar approaches would be able to give an approve and may it also be forwarded so that certain books and teaching available in the west might get needed corrections. Not sure if Bhante Thanissaro is reachable via Dhammatalks .

Bhante Ariyadhammika , Bhante Varado , also maybe reachable Bhante Nyanadassana and Bhante Bhikkhu Anon (also much engaged in investigations and share of them)...

Vinaya is really a Sangha issue, something that need to be clarified in a larger assembly and it makes no sense at this times of very less rest to produce something special in the backyards and present it then to a large audience. May be Bhantes please use given possibilities which are detached from trade and group-interest (sakkayaditthi).

May person has no means to present things in pleasing manner for many but the Venerables, skilled in such, would have the possibility to use the raw material provided.

It's not possible to trace the heartwood of this tradition in books or in scholar area, dry researches, but need to look after the many small parts here and there still practiced, incl. the knowledge of certain conditions and kind of Dukkha not accessible for especially Devas.

Ven. Kassapa wasn't a scholar, citer, knowing much of conventions, text, and nevertheless he was most useful in gathering the important as one having been on the front all the time. Maybe something to consider. Yet without "system sustainer", "administration department", meaning a large assembling including the dry parts, Sangha, it wouldn't work either. Practice, Knowledge and System-evaluation, all three are necessary to keep the special army alive.
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 09, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Related to, in another similar topic

Lok Ta Varado has shared some reflections and own investigations and opinions by the Brahman Brahm which some might find to be useful for their try in finding relations, (although having no impression of being only slightly related, either outwardly nor inwardly, national-cultural and noble-cultural. But this is something one needs to find out for oneself).

It's actually a paper mainly subjected on discreditating the SouthEastAsian ancestors with the means of tonics, in regard of the 5 tonics, who provided at least also certain bellies, and may match the topic on loṇasociraka as well.

As possible not having access to request wise, not tracing them, one may relay on the other aspects given in the Kalama sutta, for those not related yet, no refuge yet.

Also here, with great compassion, willing to share everything Lok Ta Varado can, Ven Grandfather gave the accounts of Brahman Brahm on the topic, see attached.

Accounts by Ajahn Brahm see Bhesajja
Title: Re: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on December 18, 2022, 02:10:23 PM
Translation into Khmer on the two kinds of drinks (first all time, second 8 when sick), and that they are not to be stored (needed to beobtained at the very day):

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៤៣] ភិក្ខុបានបាយក្តី ទឹកក្តី បង្អែមក្តី សំពត់ក្តី មិនគប្បីធ្វើនូវការសន្សំទុកទេ មួយទៀត កាលបើមិនបានវត្ថុទាំងនោះ ក៏មិនគប្បីតក់ស្លុតឡើយ។

[៤៤] អធិប្បាយពាក្យថា បាយក្តី ទឹកក្តី បង្អែមក្តី សំពត់ក្តី ត្រង់ពាក្យថា បាយ គឺបាយ នំ សដូវ ត្រី សាច់។ ពាក្យថា ទឹក គឺទឹក ៨ យ៉ាង គឺ ទឹកស្វាយ ទឹកព្រីង ទឹកចេកមានគ្រាប់ ទឹកចេកឥតគ្រាប់ ទឹកស្រគំ ទឹកចន្ទ ទឹកក្រអៅឈូក ទឹកមាក់ប្រាង។ ទឹក ៨ យ៉ាងដទៃទៀត គឺទឹកសង្ឃ័រ ទឹកពទ្រាតូច ទឹកពទ្រាធំ ទឹកដោះថ្លា ទឹកគឺប្រេង ទឹកបបរ ទឹកដោះស្រស់ ទឹករស (ស្លឹកឈើ ជាដើម)។ ពាក្យថា បង្អែម គឺបង្អែមដែលធ្វើអំពីម្សៅ បង្អែមនំ បង្អែមមើមឈើ បង្អែមសម្បកឈើ បង្អែមស្លឹកឈើ បង្អែមផ្កាឈើ បង្អែមផ្លែឈើ។ ពាក្យថា សំពត់ បានដល់សំពត់ ៦ យ៉ាង គឺសំពត់សម្បកឈើ ១ សំពត់អម្បោះ ១ សំពត់សូត្រ ១ សំពត់រោមសត្វ ១ សំពត់សម្បកធ្មៃ ១ សំពត់ដែលធ្វើដោយវត្ថុទាំងនោះលាយចម្រុះគ្នា ១ ហេតុនោះ (ទ្រង់ត្រាស់ថា) បាយក្តី ទឹកក្តី បង្អែមក្តី សំពត់ក្តី។

[៤៥] អធិប្បាយពាក្យថា បានហើយ មិនគប្បីធ្វើនូវការសន្សំទុកទេ ត្រង់ពាក្យថា បាន គឺបាន បានហើយ យកមកហើយ បានស៊ប់ហើយ បានចំពោះហើយ មិនមែន (បាន) ដោយការកុហក គឺញុំាងសត្វលោកឲ្យភាន់ភាំង មិនមែនដោយការពោលពាក្យរាក់ទាក់ មិនមែនដោយការធ្វើនិមិត្ត គឺពោលបញ្ឆិតបញ្ឆៀង មិនមែនដោយការកិនកំទេចនូវគុណគេ មិនមែនដោយការស្វែងរកលាភដោយលាភ មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យឈើ មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យឫស្សី មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យស្លឹកឈើ មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យផ្កាឈើ មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យផ្លែឈើ មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យលំអិតសម្រាប់ងូត មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យលំអិតសម្រាប់លាប មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យដីស្អិត មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យឈើស្ទន់ មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យទឹកសម្រាប់លប់មុខ មិនមែនដោយការពោលលើកតម្កើងអ្នកដទៃ មិនមែនដោយការពោលពាក្យមិនពិត ដូចសម្លសណ្តែកបាយ មិនមែនដោយការថ្នាក់ថ្នម (នូវកូនត្រកូល) មិនមែនដោយការចូលទៅអង្គុយលើតាំងក្នុងផ្ទះយ៉ាងរហ័ស មិនមែនដោយវត្ថុវិជ្ជា (ការចេះទាយនូវទីភូមិស្ថាន) មិនមែនដោយតិរច្ឆានវិជ្ជា មិនមែនដោយអង្គវិជ្ជា (ការចេះទាយអវយវៈ) មិនមែនដោយនក្ខត្តវិជ្ជា (ការចេះទាយនក្ខត្តឫក្ស) មិនមែនដោយការទៅធ្វើខ្លួនជាទូត មិនមែនដោយការទៅធ្វើខ្លួនជាអ្នកនាំដំណឹងដែលគេផ្តាំ មិនមែនដោយការធ្វើជាអ្នកបំរើគេដោយស្មង មិនមែនដោយវេជ្ជកម្ម មិនមែនដោយនវកម្ម មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យដុំបាយដោយដុំបាយ មិនមែនដោយការឲ្យទៅឲ្យមក គឺបាន បានហើយ យកមកហើយ បានស៊ប់ហើយ បានចំពោះហើយ ដោយធម៌ដ៏ស្មើ ហេតុនោះ (ទ្រង់ត្រាស់ថា) បានហើយ។ ពាក្យថា មិនគប្បីធ្វើនូវការសន្សំទេ គឺមិនគប្បីធ្វើ មិនគប្បីឲ្យកើត មិនគប្បីឲ្យកើតព្រម មិនគប្បីបង្កើត មិនគប្បីបង្កើតចំពោះនូវការសន្សំបាយ ការសន្សំទឹក ការសន្សំសំពត់ ការសន្សំយាន ការសន្សំទីដេក ការសន្សំគ្រឿងក្រអូប ការសន្សំអាមិសៈ ហេតុនោះ (ទ្រង់ត្រាស់ថា) បានហើយ មិនគប្បីធ្វើនូវការសន្សំទេ។
Quote from: https://sangham.net/km/tipitaka/sut/kn/man/sut.kn.man.14#para_41