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2020 May 23 06:43:43
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2020 May 22 21:09:34
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2020 May 21 20:16:55
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2020 May 21 19:30:50
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2020 May 20 21:19:41
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2020 May 20 20:44:31
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2020 May 20 20:43:13
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2020 May 18 12:17:04
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2020 May 17 21:21:28
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2020 May 17 07:36:11
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2020 May 17 07:14:16
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2020 May 17 06:01:03
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2020 May 16 20:42:01
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2020 May 15 20:13:51
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2020 May 15 19:17:25
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2020 May 14 09:09:08
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2020 May 14 06:17:12
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2020 May 12 21:00:24
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2020 May 12 19:10:56
Johann: May no one ever, even a moment, forget: "Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven, lordship over all worlds:    the fruit of stream-entry    excels them."

2020 May 10 15:27:11
Depabhasadhamma: Thank you Johann

2020 May 10 15:26:00
Johann: "stand", taking, holding a stand makes it possible more understandable and fits better to it.

2020 May 10 15:24:35
Johann: Welcome Depabasadhamma, Atma will open a topic on it.

2020 May 10 15:04:51
Depabhasadhamma: I am in need of assistance. I am writing a paper about the Three Marks of Existence. I understand the three marks, however, I am befuddled by the meaning and use of the word "existence." Is this English word the translation of the Pali word thiti? Does the word "existence" imply life, living, consci

2020 May 09 21:15:38
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:48:57
Johann: Apsara in Pali: accharā, translation actually "A Whoo!"

2020 May 09 20:45:38
Johann: "...“Then take joy, Nanda. Take joy! I am your guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs.”..."

2020 May 09 20:45:17
Johann: "“What do you think, Nanda? Which is lovelier, better looking, more charming: the Sakyan girl, the envy of the countryside, or these 500 dove-footed nymphs?”..."

2020 May 09 20:43:26
Johann: There was a Bhikkhu "who got an email from an ex-co-dweller" and thought he will return to lower life, Nyom: Nanda Sutta

2020 May 09 20:35:41
Johann: It's actually just about the clothes, since his livemode is already a great Samaneras one.

2020 May 09 20:33:48
Cheav Villa: Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana never heard about the Bhuddha promised..  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 20:33:17
Johann: Till end of Vassa maybe?

2020 May 09 20:25:18
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_ Should try an ordination which in 7days.  _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:16:21
Johann: Apsara (dove feet Devatas).

2020 May 09 20:13:19
Johann: Temporary ordination is pretty normal, 3 days, a month, a Vassa... and not to forget that the Buddha promised union with the Asparas, which are beyond being compareable to others...

2020 May 09 19:25:54
Moritz: No no, I really prefer to be a householder, even though not having a house at the moment. I am not much inclined towards nekkhamma...  ^-^
... even though already doing some nekkhamma now, but not hoping to do so for the long term....

2020 May 09 19:24:05
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2020 May 09 19:08:20
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2020 May 09 19:00:58
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2020 May 09 18:52:05
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2020 May 09 18:39:04
Johann: Nyom has his working dress and his light formal dress. White he might have possible to much troubles, so better to convince him toward robes.  :)

2020 May 09 17:38:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ Master Moritz should wear white clothes.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 07 15:18:07
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 10:33:24
Johann: Householder clothes are really no more proper for Upasaka Khemadasa.... good to take him fear of the robes

2020 May 07 10:21:10
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 07 10:19:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 07 06:02:32
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2020 May 07 05:46:38
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2020 May 07 03:25:02
Khemakumara: May it be a path-and fruitful vesak Uposatha

2020 May 06 16:07:14
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2020 May 06 16:02:35
Johann: A blessed Vesaka Puja all, today and tomorrow, in reflection the goodness and qualities of the Sublime Buddha.

2020 May 04 21:25:10
Johann: followed by another overload by huawei-search engines... fixed

2020 May 04 20:31:45
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 04 20:25:53
Johann: A MS search engine (Bing) had overloaded the server capacity and might had caused the page not to be reached, but a cave-programmer quickly solved the issue, becoming aware of it. Sadhu

2020 May 03 21:13:46
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante Ariyadhammika _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 20:32:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 19:15:52
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2020 May 03 15:01:43
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 03 12:53:08
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 May 03 12:07:17
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 03 12:00:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 09:39:36
Johann: ...and the snake hunts the mice...

2020 May 03 09:11:20
Johann: Dwelling like Devas under Devas, peaceful, respectful, careful, harmless

2020 Apr 30 10:05:08
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:15:43
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:08:53
Johann: May all spend a meritful end of Sila-day, those who taking on it today, and maybe continue with those doing so tomorrow.

2020 Apr 29 20:09:39
Johann: Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 29 20:07:29
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:26:31
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 26 20:23:57
Cheav Villa: and Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:23:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:30
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:25
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 08:18:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 07:18:02
Johann: Ādīnava , អដីនវ, As one of ten perceptions: AN 10.60

2020 Apr 26 07:09:32
Johann: May Dukkha be visible for all, so to stay on the path  that leads beyond and liberation.

2020 Apr 25 16:57:34
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 25 15:54:00
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 23 18:41:59
Johann: Sadhu for care to report and assist

2020 Apr 23 18:39:44
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana now not get notification.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 23 15:04:07
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 23 13:45:57
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 22 11:17:56
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2020 Apr 22 06:38:01
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 Apr 22 05:45:37
Khemakumara: karuṇā, corona? which one prefers?   may it a fruit- and pathful Uposatha!

2020 Apr 21 19:53:51
Johann: If Nyom likes to use Atmas tablet and Sim, just pick it up at any time.

2020 Apr 21 19:49:09
Moritz: Smart connection works well.

2020 Apr 21 19:48:53
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante, mobile hotspot from the cave does not really reach well here. So can be turned off. Thank you. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 21 19:48:12
Johann: Making posts work for Nyom without errors?

2020 Apr 21 19:47:18
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 21 19:22:08
Johann: So email does not work? Shoutbox sometimes needs longer because of internet connection. Sadhu for feedback.

2020 Apr 21 18:41:22
Cheav Villa: I kana still did not get the notification beceuse of new password. and shout have to write two times.   _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 21 18:25:13
Johann: Please let it be know if you meet similar issue.

2020 Apr 21 18:24:37
Johann: It seems as posting is not possible because of errors currently. Nyom Moritz is informed via email.

2020 Apr 21 17:15:42
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 21 17:02:42
Johann:  May all who observe the Uposatha today have had a blissful undertaking seen by doing so!

2020 Apr 20 20:59:39
Johann: (gave should be grave/gross)

2020 Apr 20 20:58:39
Johann: "We" = no peace at first place. But doing than for oneself and with it share to all others, that is possible, no we (= gave sakkayaditthi, the idea od we)

2020 Apr 20 20:55:50
Johann: No higher principle then Nibbana, peace. Nati santi param sukham. The is no happiness higher them real peace, Nyom.

2020 Apr 20 08:49:30
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mögen wir jemals ein hohes Prinzip haben! Dhamma Grüße aus Sri Lanka!

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Author Topic: On Being of Noble birth - Stream winner reborn as human  (Read 861 times)

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Offline Johann

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On Being of Noble birth - Stream winner reborn as human
« on: June 17, 2017, 04:55:38 PM »

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Noble Wiedergeburt - Noble rebirth ,  hier zu einem neuen eröffnen. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur Herkunft, sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!

The new topic here is made from one or more post from there Noble Wiedergeburt - Noble rebirth . For eventual additionally information to this new Topic, please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!

[Original post:]


Stream winner reborn as human

Stream winner reborn as human[

someone enters the stream and becomes a sotapanna (stream winner), then he would have at most, seven lifetimes left. What the stream is, is defined in this answer as:

This noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the stream. (SN 55.5)


Thanissaro Bhikku further comments here that:

The coming-together of these factors is called the stream because it leads inevitably to two things, just as the current of a tributary will lead inevitably to a major river and then to the sea. In the immediate present, the stream leads directly to the arising of the Dhamma eye, the vision that actually constitutes this first awakening. Over time, the stream ensures that — in no more than seven lifetimes — one will be totally unbound.


The Dhamma eye is explained as the ability to see firsthand and experientially, the impermanence of the five aggregates and dependent origination.

My questions are (for rebirths as a human):
  • 1. How does a reborn stream-winner know that he or she is one?
  • 2. Does being a stream-winner in a previous lifetime, mean that one would be reborn into a devout Buddhist family in this lifetime or would definitely be led to the Dhamma eventually?
  • 3. Is the reborn stream-winner's Dhamma eye open immediately at birth, or only after he or she encounters the Dhamma and returns back to the Noble Eightfold Path?
  • 4. How is it guaranteed that the reborn stream-winner would not choose another path or another teacher, and drop out of the stream, considering that we do not remember previous lifetimes?
  • 5. Please provide any info from the canon regarding this.

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" - which also could have been changed by third person - that can be found here . )


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.

Ruben2020, and who ever might be interested in answers of you question:

Begin a time where the matter of "what makes one a stream-winner" seems to interest many and maybe because many "Noble-Born" are currently remind, meting they reminder, on their old path they have already gone, it's maybe worthy to recollect the teachings informations about this matter in a good manner and everybody should be encouraged here to point out possible mistakes and missing points.


➨ 1. How does a reborn stream-winner know that he or she is one?

Acutally in the frame set of the questions it would be unlikely the first, since why would one raise such a question if maybe not even aware of such as "steam-winner.

How ever, lets look what are the atributes that a Streamwinner "possesses". Of what we know about what the Buddha said, being answered the question, "How does one know if having won the Stream or not?", the properly most similar question and most direct answer is found in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta , in an conversation mit Ven. Ananda Thera, the Bhikkhus have been used to ask for the attainments of others the Lord Buddha an he giving them a mirror to use to look for oneself:
 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Mirror of the Dhamma

Ananda, I will give you the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

"And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple may thus declare of himself?

"In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honor, of hospitality, of offerings, of veneration — the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'

"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.

"This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

There are other Suttas as well, which describe the attributs of a Streamwinner like in the Samyutta Nikaya, the SN 22.109: Sotaapanno Sutta — The Sotaapanna (' Stream-winner') or the Okkanta-samyutta — Entering

 
In this samyutta the Buddha explains the kinds of conviction and understanding that are required for the attainment of stream-entry. These short suttas share an identical structure, with each one focusing on a different aspect of experience (including the six senses, the six elements (dhatu), and the five aggregates). See also the Study Guides on stream-entry .


For example:

 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Itks maybe worthy to keep in mind that one needs to be very honest and proof very in detail all corners and dismantel any kind of quickly made judgement in its seriousity. That, how ever, requires to know, heaving heard the good teachings and understand clearly their meaning.

In regard of the fetters, a stream-winner has abounded the first three lower fetters of the ten fetters :

  • Self-identity views (sakkāya-diṭṭhi), identifying either the clinging-aggragats, or some, or one, or the sense-groups and their objects, some, or one, as being an lasting personality.

     
  • Uncertainty or doubt (vicikiccha), meaning that one does no more seek for other teachers and teaching than the Buddha and his Dhamma, transported by the Savaka-Sangha.

     
  • Grasping at (wrong) precepts & practices (sīlabbata-parāmāsa), which are not conductive for the path and naturally follow conductive ones, relaying merely on the judgement of the own mind in regard of what is skillful and unskilful and no more need of authority be given precepts & practices in the judgements sphere of speech (verbalication) and bodily acts. With other words, deeds (in mind, speech and body) are now "controlled" in an inwardly manner and no more just and outwardly evaluation, in a ways of outwardly comparing appearances but by relaying on mindstates, e.g intention (cetana), not to mix with purpose) for it. While the wordling act merely fixed on the gain of certain fruit (vipāka), the Noble Ones view has turned to the quality of the action (kamma) when deciding what and how to do.
In regard of the virue of a streamwinner there are many views and disputes of which, how and if a streamwinner can break the basic four precepts and missconuct in consuming means which cause heedlessness.

Since the virtue of a Noble person of first degree is based on gained right view, he/she is not able to act strong unskillful deliberated. It might be that faulty acts happen in "affect", but even done he/she does not hidde such a fault and has a natural desire to confess it immediately.

How ever, he/she is in any case incapable to performing acts out of niyata micca ditthi, evil wrong view , and therefore incapable:

Quote from: Commentar to Sn 2.1

  • matricide, 2 patricide,
  • the murder of arahants (the Consummate Ones),
  • the shedding of the Buddha's blood,
  • causing schism in the Sangha, and 6.pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi).

In reagard of more detail of the virtue, my person gave recently some words on it in a discussion: Can there be Non-Attachment without Virtue?

In regard of recognition by others (and in the case one seeks for prove by others), is needed to know, that only a "person on integrity (e.g. a Noble One)" can know of anothers persons integrity (MN 110 ). The Sutta Paṭisalla Sutta: Seclusion contains also explainings here that:

 
It's through living together that a person's virtue... It's through trading with a person that his purity... It's through adversity that a person's endurance... It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.


My person will end here in regard of the first question.


➨ 2. Does being a stream-winner in a previous lifetime, mean that one would be reborn into a devout Buddhist family in this lifetime or would definitely be led to the Dhamma eventually?

No, there are certain kinds mentioned and about the "leding", he she would definitly. On how: see answer question 3.

A steam-winner will be born
  • mostly 7 more times in the realm of the Devas (sensual world is no hight path is gained) or human world, here:
  • reborn in a good family
  • one-seeder
See AN 9.12 (Bhikkhu Bodhi):

... With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a one-seed attainer who, after being reborn once more as a human being, makes an end of suffering.

... With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a family-to-family attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among good families two or three times, makes an end of suffering.

...With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seven times-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering. ...



➨ 3. Is the reborn stream-winner's Dhamma eye open immediately at birth, or only after he or she encounters the Dhamma and returns back to the Noble Eightfold Path?

He/She maybe not conscious about having the " Dhamma-eye but like answered to question 4. is not in a strong danger to follow wrong teacher, in an amout that is not in the frame of the conduct and way of thinking of a Noble One.

Becoming aware about the Dhamma is also answered under question 4, which can have four general typs of reminder:


➨ 4. How is it guaranteed that the reborn stream-winner would not choose another path or another teacher, and drop out of the stream, considering that we do not remember previous lifetimes?

AN 4.191 indicates that one (here a previous monk appearing under Devas), if not reminding him-/herselves ("dies with a muddled mind") either is remembered by
  • comming in contact by him-/herself
  • a monk with special power
  • a Deva
  • a "familary" spirit

One is incapable to "fall out" or "follow other Paths", since - like in the 1. question answered - the fetter "doubt" is abounded. Now it might be possible that he/she trains within another religion als long and in so far, the views and practices contain the factors of the noble eightfold path. It's so possible, that if one maintains a "mystic" approach in regard of "God", it could be that one practices as Christian, or better under Christians, till one meets the good Dhamma, for example, or in certain other sects, but will maybe oppose certain things there naturally.

So it is guaranteed by or through his/her previous deeds, the fullfilement of bringing together all pathfactors and the hearing of the good Dhamma with proper attention in advanced.


➨ 5. Please provide any info from the canon regarding this.

The answers should already countain the sources. One of the best collection of Suttas might be the Studyguiden Into the Stream - A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening , by Bhante Thanissaro, which will provide many additional informations and teachings, not only for gifted "Noble-Born's" but also for Dhamma-, Faith- and most suggested for those "with little faith" for now, to not only gain more of it, but also put all means into practice and finish a task so less are capable, bringing behind the most of all burdens to be for ever behind.

 

* Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.

* Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.

* Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry.

* Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.

— SN 55.5


May all beings have share of the merits here done with the support and sacrifies of many and may the Devas inform those not having seen or heard yet.

Anumodana!

(Note: This is a gift of Dhamma, came into being by goodness received and gratitude and so given by goodness and gratitude, and not meant for commercial purpose and trade in the world, or any wordily gain.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 04:57:40 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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