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Talkbox

2020 May 29 20:39:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 19:56:20
Johann: What ever sacrificed toward the Sublime Gems, toward liberation, such is condition for no more flowing back into the world. Mudita

2020 May 29 08:40:16
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:34:50
Johann: [continue] ...kāma-guṇa (sensual giving) , death, alive, increasing the cemeteries in the world. This is why just giving toward the virtuous, those with metta, bears fruits beyond the common, as it's not for further kāma-guṇa that they would use it for, but as base for lessons, for purificatio

2020 May 29 08:33:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:27:03
Johann: If one would know or remembering the suffering behind pleasing form, sound, smell, taste, touch, one certain would no more desire after it. But because lof lack of remembering and proper attention, beings go after it, take birth, age, get sick, seperated, die, again and again, keeping the flame of k

2020 May 29 08:15:29
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:15:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 07:42:53
Johann: If ones sacrifices, generosity, isn't protected by a good closed tank, less fruits can be expected. And what is the tank made of? Saddha, Pasada, metta, Sila, intention for own and others independency.

2020 May 29 06:36:24
Johann: A blessed Siladay all who are doing it today

2020 May 28 19:24:28
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 28 18:32:00
Moritz: Upgrade to SMF 2.0.17 has been completed. Everything running smooth for everybody?

2020 May 23 06:43:43
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 22 21:09:34
Johann: May all still continue to spend a blessed New moon Uposatha till break on of a new day (of course good to continue without break). Mudita

2020 May 21 20:16:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 21 19:30:50
Johann: Nothing more a blessing as to do not cling to a specific Nikaya, since one can easy take the opportunity of doing theUposatha often two days a new. May all always make the best of given possibilities.

2020 May 20 21:19:41
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 20 20:44:31
Cheav Villa: May Bhante get well soon.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 20 20:43:13
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 14:55:14
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 12:17:04
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 21:21:28
Johann: Nyom Sophorn

2020 May 17 07:36:11
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 17 07:14:16
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 06:01:03
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2020 May 16 20:42:01
Johann: Bhante

2020 May 15 20:13:51
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 15 19:17:25
Johann: A blessed Siladay ending for those who keep(ed) it today.

2020 May 14 09:09:08
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 14 06:17:12
Johann: A bl3ssed Sila-day those observing it today.

2020 May 12 21:00:24
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 12 19:10:56
Johann: May no one ever, even a moment, forget: "Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven, lordship over all worlds:    the fruit of stream-entry    excels them."

2020 May 10 15:27:11
Depabhasadhamma: Thank you Johann

2020 May 10 15:26:00
Johann: "stand", taking, holding a stand makes it possible more understandable and fits better to it.

2020 May 10 15:24:35
Johann: Welcome Depabasadhamma, Atma will open a topic on it.

2020 May 10 15:04:51
Depabhasadhamma: I am in need of assistance. I am writing a paper about the Three Marks of Existence. I understand the three marks, however, I am befuddled by the meaning and use of the word "existence." Is this English word the translation of the Pali word thiti? Does the word "existence" imply life, living, consci

2020 May 09 21:15:38
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:48:57
Johann: Apsara in Pali: accharā, translation actually "A Whoo!"

2020 May 09 20:45:38
Johann: "...“Then take joy, Nanda. Take joy! I am your guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs.”..."

2020 May 09 20:45:17
Johann: "“What do you think, Nanda? Which is lovelier, better looking, more charming: the Sakyan girl, the envy of the countryside, or these 500 dove-footed nymphs?”..."

2020 May 09 20:43:26
Johann: There was a Bhikkhu "who got an email from an ex-co-dweller" and thought he will return to lower life, Nyom: Nanda Sutta

2020 May 09 20:35:41
Johann: It's actually just about the clothes, since his livemode is already a great Samaneras one.

2020 May 09 20:33:48
Cheav Villa: Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana never heard about the Bhuddha promised..  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 20:33:17
Johann: Till end of Vassa maybe?

2020 May 09 20:25:18
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_ Should try an ordination which in 7days.  _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:16:21
Johann: Apsara (dove feet Devatas).

2020 May 09 20:13:19
Johann: Temporary ordination is pretty normal, 3 days, a month, a Vassa... and not to forget that the Buddha promised union with the Asparas, which are beyond being compareable to others...

2020 May 09 19:25:54
Moritz: No no, I really prefer to be a householder, even though not having a house at the moment. I am not much inclined towards nekkhamma...  ^-^
... even though already doing some nekkhamma now, but not hoping to do so for the long term....

2020 May 09 19:24:05
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 09 19:08:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 19:00:58
Johann: When not working he is already used to where his beige light clean cloth, morning, noon, evening and already good organized.

2020 May 09 18:52:05
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 18:39:04
Johann: Nyom has his working dress and his light formal dress. White he might have possible to much troubles, so better to convince him toward robes.  :)

2020 May 09 17:38:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ Master Moritz should wear white clothes.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 07 15:18:07
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 10:33:24
Johann: Householder clothes are really no more proper for Upasaka Khemadasa.... good to take him fear of the robes

2020 May 07 10:21:10
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 07 10:19:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 07 06:02:32
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 05:46:38
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 07 03:25:02
Khemakumara: May it be a path-and fruitful vesak Uposatha

2020 May 06 16:07:14
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 06 16:02:35
Johann: A blessed Vesaka Puja all, today and tomorrow, in reflection the goodness and qualities of the Sublime Buddha.

2020 May 04 21:25:10
Johann: followed by another overload by huawei-search engines... fixed

2020 May 04 20:31:45
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 04 20:25:53
Johann: A MS search engine (Bing) had overloaded the server capacity and might had caused the page not to be reached, but a cave-programmer quickly solved the issue, becoming aware of it. Sadhu

2020 May 03 21:13:46
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante Ariyadhammika _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 20:32:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 19:15:52
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2020 May 03 15:01:43
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 03 12:53:08
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 May 03 12:07:17
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 03 12:00:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 09:39:36
Johann: ...and the snake hunts the mice...

2020 May 03 09:11:20
Johann: Dwelling like Devas under Devas, peaceful, respectful, careful, harmless

2020 Apr 30 10:05:08
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:15:43
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:08:53
Johann: May all spend a meritful end of Sila-day, those who taking on it today, and maybe continue with those doing so tomorrow.

2020 Apr 29 20:09:39
Johann: Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 29 20:07:29
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:26:31
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 26 20:23:57
Cheav Villa: and Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:23:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:30
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:25
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 08:18:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 07:18:02
Johann: Ādīnava , អដីនវ, As one of ten perceptions: AN 10.60

2020 Apr 26 07:09:32
Johann: May Dukkha be visible for all, so to stay on the path  that leads beyond and liberation.

2020 Apr 25 16:57:34
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 25 15:54:00
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 23 18:41:59
Johann: Sadhu for care to report and assist

2020 Apr 23 18:39:44
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana now not get notification.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 23 15:04:07
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 23 13:45:57
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 22 11:17:56
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2020 Apr 22 06:38:01
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 Apr 22 05:45:37
Khemakumara: karuṇā, corona? which one prefers?   may it a fruit- and pathful Uposatha!

2020 Apr 21 19:53:51
Johann: If Nyom likes to use Atmas tablet and Sim, just pick it up at any time.

2020 Apr 21 19:49:09
Moritz: Smart connection works well.

2020 Apr 21 19:48:53
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante, mobile hotspot from the cave does not really reach well here. So can be turned off. Thank you. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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[Buddha]

Author Topic: The meaning of the "Four great references", the source mentioned.  (Read 8219 times)

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Offline Johann

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 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Venerable members of the Sangha,
Venerable fellows,

valued Upasaka, Upasika
Buddha-parisata,

"entertaining" here another time for a good, or follow the ways of the Noble-Ones, to often discuss and cross-question matters wit each other (even if practical no more required for the questioner, the asked or even both):

Venerable Ariyadhammika - while discussing matters on Vinaya, better on certain usuals in the practice of Duthangas - generously shared the four great references mentioned in AN 4.180 and DN16. Asked if Bhante might be pleased and approves further detail investigation of the meaning of the Sutta, if he would like to help here, he stayed silent. Staying silent my person assumes it as being an acceptance and so would like to invite foremost the Theras and Venerables, coming in touch with the topic, to help, out of compassion, to get a good understanding of the meaning.

Here the translated and given part from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (my person has current no possibility to supply with a, for the Sangha, given-to-make-use-of-it-translation on AN 4.180.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Four Great References

7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."

Here it has been said, delivered (my person hopes that he had traced the right Pali-section for it as well):

Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline...

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Tāni ce sutte otāriyamānāni vinaye sandassiyamānāni sutte ceva otaranti vinaye ca sandissanti, niṭṭhamettha gantabbaṃ – ‘addhā, idaṃ tassa bhagavato vacanaṃ arahato sammāsambuddhassa; tesañca therānaṃ suggahita’nti.
[/bockq]

What is the meaning of "one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline", how should this be understood. What counts as source of Sutta (Dhamma), source of Vinaya? What is meant by "this is the Blessed One's utterance"?

Related to it my person comes a Sutta to mind, where people criticized another to do not recite the texts of the Buddha, the Buddha never said this, and the Buddha declared that what ever dhammic teaching a Noble person would give, would count as said by the Buddha.

(My person just did not remember the name of it, Nyom Moritz once quoted it in the talk-box in relation of "proving another attainments from time to time, and proving ones own", which was advocated by the criticized person and rejected to have not been told by the Buddha.)

Related to it also a certain structure of relay-ability comes to mind, starting with the lowest trustworthy source, ones own opinion, goes on to a knower of one book, two, three, then one who has mastered the Jhanas, Streamenter, Oncereturner... and finally the Arahat as highest kind of teacher, relay-ability (parts of this comment might have it's origin in the commentaries).

In how far can all this be possible adopted to merely literary sources most might have access? Would just relay on literary sources give even the possibility to prove within this standards, lacking on refined sources find only by Noble Ones?

My person hopes he could give here useful anchors to investigate this topic as well as hints on slippery tracks possible to use by defilement to take them as an anchor.

May the Venerable Ones, out of compassion, help to get a good and most proper understanding of the meaning, while providing a way of thinking suitable for possible many states of developments of wisdom and attentivity.

May who ever knowledgeable, or tracing good accounts, feel free of giving into this topic here.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 03:15:52 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Kana could find the mentioned Sutta, in regard of "What counts as the words of the Buddha"

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Uttara Sutta

On one occasion Ven. Uttara was staying in Mahisavatthu [Water Buffalo Ground] on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika. There he addressed the monks:

“Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.”

Now on that occasion the Great King Vessavana had gone from the north to the south on some business or other. He heard Ven. Uttara in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: “Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.” So — just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm — the Great King Vessavana disappeared from Dhavajalika on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Mahisavatthu and reappeared among the devas of the Heaven of the Thirty-three. Then he went to Sakka the deva-king and, on arrival, said, “You should know, dear sir, that Ven. Uttara in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika is teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: 'Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings… on the failings of others… on his own attainments… on the attainments of others.'”

So Sakka the deva-king — just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm — disappeared from the devas of the Heaven of the Thirty-three and reappeared in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika in Ven. Uttara's presence. Then he went to Ven. Uttara and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he said to Ven. Uttara, “Is it true, venerable sir, that Ven. Uttara is teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: 'Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings… on the failings of others… on his own attainments… on the attainments of others'?”

“Yes, deva-king.”

“But is this Ven. Uttara's own extemporaneous invention, or is it the saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One?”

“Very well, then, deva-king, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it's through an analogy that observant people can understand the meaning of what is being said. Suppose that not far from a village or town there was a great pile of grain, from which a great crowd of people were carrying away grain on their bodies, on their heads, in their laps, or in their cupped hands. If someone were to approach that great crowd of people and ask them, 'From where are you carrying away grain?' answering in what way would that great crowd of people answer so as to be answering rightly?”

“Venerable sir, they would answer, 'We are carrying it from that great pile of grain,' so as to be answering rightly.”

“In the same way, deva-king, whatever is well said is all a saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. Adopting it again & again from there do we & others speak.”

“Amazing, venerable sir. Astounding, venerable sir — how well that has been said by Ven. Uttara: 'Whatever is well said is all a saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. Adopting it again & again from there do we & others speak.' *(1) On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha on Vulture Peak Mountain, not long after Devadatta's departure. There, referring to Devadatta, he addressed the monks: 'Monks, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.

”'Conquered by eight untrue dhammas, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable. Which eight?

“'Conquered by material gain, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable.

”'Conquered by lack of material gain…

“'Conquered by status…

”'Conquered by lack of status…

“'Conquered by offerings…

”'Conquered by lack of offerings…

“'Conquered by evil ambition…

”'Conquered by evil friendship, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable.

“'Monks, it's good for a monk to keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain. It's good for a monk to keep conquering again & again any arisen lack of material gain… any arisen status… any arisen lack of status… any arisen offerings… any arisen lack of offerings… any arisen evil ambition… any arisen evil friendship.

”'And for what compelling reason should a monk keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen evil friendship? Because when one dwells not having conquered any arisen material gain, effluents arise, along with vexations & fevers. But when one dwells having conquered any arisen material gain, those effluents, vexations, & fevers are not.

[Similarly with any arisen lack of material gain, any arisen status, any arisen lack of status, any arisen offerings, any arisen lack of offerings, any arisen evil ambition, & any arisen evil friendship.]

“'It's for this compelling reason that a monk should keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen evil friendship.

”'Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen lack of material gain… any arisen status… any arisen lack of status… any arisen offerings… any arisen lack of offerings… any arisen evil ambition… any arisen evil friendship.' That's how you should train yourselves.' *

“Up to now, Ven. Uttara, the four companies — monks, nuns, lay men, & lay women — have not established this Dhamma-discourse among human beings. Take up this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Master this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Remember this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Connected with the goal is this Dhamma-discourse, and basic to the holy life!”

One may ask why my person told "what is said by Noble Ones" above and not just "what is well said. As made clear here in the not out of reason following part on Devatatta, only one who has overcome the 8 wordily dhammas, has abound maccariya, only such lies withing the "great pile of grain", while what is pound to the 8 wordily Dhammas, originated there, can not provide release.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 03:10:45 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Okasa Bhante Ariyadhammika ,

having taken leave, having just given a teaching, my person thought that it is not only very related to the topic here, but would like to ask Bhante, if he would be that generous to investigate the statements, prove them, and possible enlarge, correct or rebuke them, not at least for the  main topics understanding here.
May Bhante, if his circumstances allow it and no burden for his own practice, out of compassion for many, take on a critical inspection of the taught, so that the Buddha, his Dhamma, the worthy Sangha, would not misinterpreted and many could benefit from it.

Here the taught, just short time ago delivered: [Q&A] Could someone teach the Dhamma better then the Buddha?

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This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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