Recent Topics

[Today at 08:17:06 AM]

[May 24, 2020, 10:11:53 PM]

[May 24, 2020, 07:03:07 AM]

[May 23, 2020, 08:21:08 PM]

[May 23, 2020, 03:06:00 PM]

[May 22, 2020, 09:41:27 PM]

[May 22, 2020, 06:16:16 AM]

[May 19, 2020, 02:21:52 PM]

[May 17, 2020, 09:33:28 PM]

[May 17, 2020, 03:15:00 PM]

[May 17, 2020, 07:37:09 AM]

[May 16, 2020, 10:31:46 PM]

[May 15, 2020, 11:12:31 PM]

[May 15, 2020, 09:33:00 PM]

[May 14, 2020, 07:16:03 AM]

[May 13, 2020, 09:58:57 PM]

[May 13, 2020, 08:14:37 PM]

[May 13, 2020, 07:19:16 PM]

[May 11, 2020, 10:52:03 PM]

[May 11, 2020, 09:46:41 PM]

[May 10, 2020, 07:38:27 PM]

[May 10, 2020, 06:07:05 PM]

[May 10, 2020, 05:25:17 PM]

[May 10, 2020, 02:59:26 PM]

[May 10, 2020, 01:02:05 PM]

[May 10, 2020, 09:30:07 AM]

[May 09, 2020, 08:10:43 PM]

[May 09, 2020, 07:26:20 PM]

[May 08, 2020, 08:48:18 PM]

[May 08, 2020, 06:40:14 AM]

[May 07, 2020, 09:39:26 PM]

[May 07, 2020, 08:37:47 PM]

[May 06, 2020, 09:02:48 PM]

[May 06, 2020, 06:55:28 PM]

[May 05, 2020, 06:24:46 AM]

[May 04, 2020, 06:38:21 AM]

[May 03, 2020, 03:42:30 PM]

[May 03, 2020, 02:47:35 PM]

[May 02, 2020, 07:33:58 AM]

Talkbox

2020 May 23 06:43:43
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 22 21:09:34
Johann: May all still continue to spend a blessed New moon Uposatha till break on of a new day (of course good to continue without break). Mudita

2020 May 21 20:16:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 21 19:30:50
Johann: Nothing more a blessing as to do not cling to a specific Nikaya, since one can easy take the opportunity of doing theUposatha often two days a new. May all always make the best of given possibilities.

2020 May 20 21:19:41
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 20 20:44:31
Cheav Villa: May Bhante get well soon.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 20 20:43:13
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 14:55:14
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 12:17:04
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 21:21:28
Johann: Nyom Sophorn

2020 May 17 07:36:11
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 17 07:14:16
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 06:01:03
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2020 May 16 20:42:01
Johann: Bhante

2020 May 15 20:13:51
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 15 19:17:25
Johann: A blessed Siladay ending for those who keep(ed) it today.

2020 May 14 09:09:08
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 14 06:17:12
Johann: A bl3ssed Sila-day those observing it today.

2020 May 12 21:00:24
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 12 19:10:56
Johann: May no one ever, even a moment, forget: "Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven, lordship over all worlds:    the fruit of stream-entry    excels them."

2020 May 10 15:27:11
Depabhasadhamma: Thank you Johann

2020 May 10 15:26:00
Johann: "stand", taking, holding a stand makes it possible more understandable and fits better to it.

2020 May 10 15:24:35
Johann: Welcome Depabasadhamma, Atma will open a topic on it.

2020 May 10 15:04:51
Depabhasadhamma: I am in need of assistance. I am writing a paper about the Three Marks of Existence. I understand the three marks, however, I am befuddled by the meaning and use of the word "existence." Is this English word the translation of the Pali word thiti? Does the word "existence" imply life, living, consci

2020 May 09 21:15:38
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:48:57
Johann: Apsara in Pali: accharā, translation actually "A Whoo!"

2020 May 09 20:45:38
Johann: "...“Then take joy, Nanda. Take joy! I am your guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs.”..."

2020 May 09 20:45:17
Johann: "“What do you think, Nanda? Which is lovelier, better looking, more charming: the Sakyan girl, the envy of the countryside, or these 500 dove-footed nymphs?”..."

2020 May 09 20:43:26
Johann: There was a Bhikkhu "who got an email from an ex-co-dweller" and thought he will return to lower life, Nyom: Nanda Sutta

2020 May 09 20:35:41
Johann: It's actually just about the clothes, since his livemode is already a great Samaneras one.

2020 May 09 20:33:48
Cheav Villa: Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana never heard about the Bhuddha promised..  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 20:33:17
Johann: Till end of Vassa maybe?

2020 May 09 20:25:18
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_ Should try an ordination which in 7days.  _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:16:21
Johann: Apsara (dove feet Devatas).

2020 May 09 20:13:19
Johann: Temporary ordination is pretty normal, 3 days, a month, a Vassa... and not to forget that the Buddha promised union with the Asparas, which are beyond being compareable to others...

2020 May 09 19:25:54
Moritz: No no, I really prefer to be a householder, even though not having a house at the moment. I am not much inclined towards nekkhamma...  ^-^
... even though already doing some nekkhamma now, but not hoping to do so for the long term....

2020 May 09 19:24:05
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 09 19:08:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 19:00:58
Johann: When not working he is already used to where his beige light clean cloth, morning, noon, evening and already good organized.

2020 May 09 18:52:05
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 18:39:04
Johann: Nyom has his working dress and his light formal dress. White he might have possible to much troubles, so better to convince him toward robes.  :)

2020 May 09 17:38:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ Master Moritz should wear white clothes.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 07 15:18:07
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 10:33:24
Johann: Householder clothes are really no more proper for Upasaka Khemadasa.... good to take him fear of the robes

2020 May 07 10:21:10
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 07 10:19:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 07 06:02:32
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 05:46:38
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 07 03:25:02
Khemakumara: May it be a path-and fruitful vesak Uposatha

2020 May 06 16:07:14
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 06 16:02:35
Johann: A blessed Vesaka Puja all, today and tomorrow, in reflection the goodness and qualities of the Sublime Buddha.

2020 May 04 21:25:10
Johann: followed by another overload by huawei-search engines... fixed

2020 May 04 20:31:45
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 04 20:25:53
Johann: A MS search engine (Bing) had overloaded the server capacity and might had caused the page not to be reached, but a cave-programmer quickly solved the issue, becoming aware of it. Sadhu

2020 May 03 21:13:46
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante Ariyadhammika _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 20:32:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 19:15:52
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2020 May 03 15:01:43
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 03 12:53:08
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 May 03 12:07:17
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 03 12:00:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 09:39:36
Johann: ...and the snake hunts the mice...

2020 May 03 09:11:20
Johann: Dwelling like Devas under Devas, peaceful, respectful, careful, harmless

2020 Apr 30 10:05:08
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:15:43
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:08:53
Johann: May all spend a meritful end of Sila-day, those who taking on it today, and maybe continue with those doing so tomorrow.

2020 Apr 29 20:09:39
Johann: Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 29 20:07:29
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:26:31
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 26 20:23:57
Cheav Villa: and Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:23:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:30
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:25
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 08:18:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 07:18:02
Johann: Ādīnava , អដីនវ, As one of ten perceptions: AN 10.60

2020 Apr 26 07:09:32
Johann: May Dukkha be visible for all, so to stay on the path  that leads beyond and liberation.

2020 Apr 25 16:57:34
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 25 15:54:00
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 23 18:41:59
Johann: Sadhu for care to report and assist

2020 Apr 23 18:39:44
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana now not get notification.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 23 15:04:07
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 23 13:45:57
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 22 11:17:56
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2020 Apr 22 06:38:01
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 Apr 22 05:45:37
Khemakumara: karuṇā, corona? which one prefers?   may it a fruit- and pathful Uposatha!

2020 Apr 21 19:53:51
Johann: If Nyom likes to use Atmas tablet and Sim, just pick it up at any time.

2020 Apr 21 19:49:09
Moritz: Smart connection works well.

2020 Apr 21 19:48:53
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante, mobile hotspot from the cave does not really reach well here. So can be turned off. Thank you. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 21 19:48:12
Johann: Making posts work for Nyom without errors?

2020 Apr 21 19:47:18
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 21 19:22:08
Johann: So email does not work? Shoutbox sometimes needs longer because of internet connection. Sadhu for feedback.

2020 Apr 21 18:41:22
Cheav Villa: I kana still did not get the notification beceuse of new password. and shout have to write two times.   _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 21 18:25:13
Johann: Please let it be know if you meet similar issue.

2020 Apr 21 18:24:37
Johann: It seems as posting is not possible because of errors currently. Nyom Moritz is informed via email.

2020 Apr 21 17:15:42
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 21 17:02:42
Johann:  May all who observe the Uposatha today have had a blissful undertaking seen by doing so!

2020 Apr 20 20:59:39
Johann: (gave should be grave/gross)

2020 Apr 20 20:58:39
Johann: "We" = no peace at first place. But doing than for oneself and with it share to all others, that is possible, no we (= gave sakkayaditthi, the idea od we)

2020 Apr 20 20:55:50
Johann: No higher principle then Nibbana, peace. Nati santi param sukham. The is no happiness higher them real peace, Nyom.

2020 Apr 20 08:49:30
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mögen wir jemals ein hohes Prinzip haben! Dhamma Grüße aus Sri Lanka!

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition



Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka


Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

"Dhammatalks.org":
[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

Dear Visitor!

Herzlich Willkommen auf sangham.net! Welcome to sangham.net!
Ehrenwerter Gast, fühlen sie sich willkommen!

Sie können sich gerne auch unangemeldet an jeder Diskussion beteiligen und eine Antwort posten. Auch ist es Ihnen möglich, ein Post oder ein Thema an die Moderatoren zu melden, sei es nun, um ein Lob auszusprechen oder um zu tadeln. Beides ist willkommen, wenn es gut gemeint und umsichtig ist. Lesen Sie mehr dazu im Beitrag: Melden/Kommentieren von Postings für Gäste
Sie können sich aber auch jederzeit anmelden oder sich via Email einladen und anmelden lassen oder als "Visitor" einloggen, und damit stehen Ihnen noch viel mehr Möglichkeiten frei. Nutzen Sie auch die Möglichkeit einen Segen auszusprechen oder ein Räucherstäbchen anzuzünden und wir freuen uns, wenn Sie sich auch als Besucher kurz vorstellen oder Hallo sagen .
Wir wünschen viel Freude beim Nutzen und Entdecken des Forums mit all seinen nützlichen Möglichkeiten .
 
Wählen Sie Ihre bevorzugte Sprache rechts oben neben dem Suchfenster.

Wähle Sprache / Choose Language / เลือก ภาษา / ជ្រើសយកភាសា: ^ ^
 Venerated Visitor, feel heartily welcome!
You are able to participate in discussions and post even without registration. You are also able to report a post or topic to the moderators, may it be praise or a rebuke. Both is welcome if it is meant with good will and care. Read more about it within the post: Report/comment posts for guests
But you can also register any time or get invited and registered in the way to request via Email , or log in as "Visitor". If you are logged in you will have more additional possibilities. Please feel free to use the possibility to  give a blessing or light an incent stick and we are honored if you introduce yourself or say "Hello" even if you are on a short visit.
We wish you much joy in using and exploring the forum with all its useful possibilities  
Choose your preferred language on the right top corner next to the search window!

Author Topic: Stealing and taking what is not given  (Read 2263 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Stealing and taking what is not given
« on: September 22, 2019, 06:39:20 AM »
For people relaying on wrong view, the missdeed of "taking what is not given" is hard to trace as thinking in manner of rights, inherent allowance to still desires.

So my person thought to make a topic on the distinction between common laws and common judgement and the breaking of virtue as well as on kammic effects, starting here with this Sutta:

Maybe Bhante Varado likes to join here as well, and share his merits.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

009.04. Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with eight things does not do it long, ends up quickly. What eight?

Attacks those who should not be attacked, takes away without leaving anything, kills women, defiles maidens, plunders the gone forth, plunders the royal treasury, steals in the vicinity and does not have a saving Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with these eight things does not do it long, ends up quickly.

Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with eight things does it long, does not end up quickly. What eight?

Does not attack those who should not be attacked, does not take away without leaving anything, does not kill women, does not defile maidens, does not plunder the gone forth, does not plunder the royal treasury, does not steal in the vicinity and has a saving Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with these eight things does it long, does not end up quickly.
Quote from: very simple translation of AN 8.84 by Sister Uppalavanna

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2019, 06:48:09 AM »
Common laws usually measure all kinds of thieves mostly not by the fact that one as taken something under ones control, possession, primarly, but whether another is harmed or not, effected by loose of control over what he regards as his.

Stealing, requires therefore the move away for the owner to be conducted. Taking what is not given, the move toward the taker.

Whether the previous owner knows or not, perceives harm or not, perceives lose or not, once one has taken on something not having been given by deeds or words (kammic also thoughts), it's nevertheless taken on.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2019, 06:53:26 AM »
This is already hard to understand in regard of physical moveable objects, grows harder to be understood if it comes to objects not possible to move, taking land, areas, for example, or status, stand and even more harder and easy confusing when it comes the finer material things possible to copy.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2019, 06:59:57 AM »
As it is hard for the worldling to trace mind as the source of unskillful and as the wordling fails in judging by all kinds of reasonings, wise tried to give ways to cut off defilements by requesting single factors of an undertaking, yet those ways of division it self gives of course again possibilities for defilements to drive in, so at least sacca, much truthfulness by the actor himself is needed, if not crossquestioned by a skilled "judge" who has also the ability of reading, knowing, states of mind in others.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2019, 07:26:51 AM »
The factors to prove are given by wise - it's not sure if the Buddha thought it as useful tool, at least outward of his community laws -  as such:

"Even taking a halm of grass, not given, is a transgression"

- 1) Object: anything belonging to another (human) being or a group of (human) beings.
- 2) Perception: One perceives the object as belonging to another human being or a group of (human) beings.
- 3) Intention: One decides to steal it.
- 4) Effort: One takes it.


My person put "human" under breaks since this regards community laws, precepts, and not to akusala and kamma.

Object should be clear wheather it is moveable physical, not to move like "realities", land, house..., fine material things like digital or written means, non-material things like stands, position.

Perception or "knowledge", cognition. This includes aside of getting known by seen, heard or felt, the understanding as being hold as own by someone or a group. Such "holding as ones own" does not require that something is legal hold as own by someone. Even if it has been brought by depriving, by taking not given on it, it may be someone elses occupation.

Intention should be not mistaken with possible later aim or "for the sake" but simply the thought or objection of bringing the object under ones own control: to take what is not handed over physical or by speech (and thoughts in regard of kamma).

Effort means that one actually acts in this way, takes on it, moves it into or toward his sphere. It doesn't necessarily requires the perception of the previous owner to be moved out of his controll. The matter here is whether one acts in moving it into ones, or toward ones controll, out on of the sphere or border of someones control. Yet it includes also the destruction, depriving of having control over it by the owner.

The last might be the main area where on could confuse stealing (harm of someone perceiveable, countable) and taking what is not given.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 07:38:58 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Khemakumara

  • (Macel Pankonin)
  • Samanera
  • Active Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +39/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 24.07.2018
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2019, 07:45:37 AM »
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Sadhu, Sadhu

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2019, 10:38:40 AM »
Taking of what is not given requires wrong view to be persent. It's not possible to take what is not given when right view is present.

And what is wrong view, as a condition for unskillful deeds by thoughts, signs and deeds?

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: 'May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!' He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'

This is wrong view, as a condition for unskillful deeds by thoughts, signs and deeds.

And what is right view, as a condition for skillful deeds by thoughts, signs and deeds?

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He does not covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'

This is right view, as a condition for skillful deeds by thoughts, signs and deeds.

It is not possible that one acts skillful in the world without right view as forerunner and it's not possible that one acts unskillful in the world without wrong view as forerunner.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 08:13:25 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Taking what is not given as Element of the Ariyamagga, Path beyond.
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2019, 11:09:38 AM »
Taking what is not given as Element of the Ariyamagga, Path beyond.

And what is wrong view which does nevertheless not go beyond the world, being not skillful in ways to be an element of the path?

There is the case where a person regards the eye, the touch on the eye, the object of the eye, form; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the eye, as real, lasting, a refuge, under ones control. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the intellect, the touch on the intellect, the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intellect, as real, lasting, a refuge, under ones control.


This is wrong view which does nevertheless not go beyond the world, being not skillful as a element of the path. Yet it is may be still skillful based on right view objected in the world.

And what is right view which goes beyond the world, being skillful as a element of the path?

There is the case where a person does not regards the eye, the touch on the eye, the object of the eye, form; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the eye, as real, lasting, a refuge, under ones control. He does not regard the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He does not regard the intellect, the touch on the intellect, the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intellect, as real, lasting, a refuge, under his control.


This is right view which goes beyond the world, being skillful as a element of the path. Yet it is may be still unskillful based on wrong view objected in the world.

It is not possible that one relaying on right view as a factor of the path acts unskillful and takes on the senses and their objects as his and under his control. It is therefore that one who has arrived on right view that goes beyond the world, hasn't world as it's object, is incapable to act wrong, unskillful and in ways to  w fall from the path. Yet it is possible that one who uses this transcendent view to reject right view objected on world, acts in ways which do not only close up the path for long time but head him straight downward, into painful realms. Therefore those views are told to be evil wrong views, hard to abound once they have arisen.

It is possible that one relaying on wrong view which is not a factor of the path acts skillful as he takes on the senses and their objects as his and under his control. It is therefore that one who has not arrived on right view that goes beyond the world, hasn't world as it's object, is capable to act right, skillful and in ways toward the path. It is possible that one who does not use this transcendent view to regard right view objected on world, acts in ways which do not close him up the path for long time and heads him straight upwardly, to good existences. Therefore those views are told to be right views, even if not being element of the path.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 08:15:32 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2019, 11:23:00 AM »
And how can the factor of being there an object be missperceived by wrong view?

There is the case where a person, desiring on taking on what is not given, on facing it, regarding the object, thinks: "This is an object of the eye, the touch on the eye, the object of the eye, form; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the eye, and it is not real, not lasting, a refuge refuge, not to be regarded under someones control, and there is nothing taken when taking on it. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the intellect, the touch on the intellect, the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intelect, as not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarde under ones control, and there is nothing taken when taking on it.

This is how one miss-perceives the fact hat there is an object. Rejecting that there is an object he takes on it althought not given and acts evil unskilful in regard of the object.

Or he acts on relaying on wrong view objected in the world and denies the object in regard of it's worth: there is nothing thats been to be give, to sacrifies, has no parents, no preparer.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 11:52:31 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2019, 11:36:22 AM »
And how can the factor of perceiving ownership on an object be miss-perceived?

There is the case where a person, desiring on taking on what is not given, on facing it, regarding the owner-ship thinks: "This is an object of the eye, the touch on the eye, the object of the eye, form; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the eye, and it is not real, not lasting, a refuge refuge, not to be regarded under someones control, and there is nothing taken when taking on it as there is no owner perceiveable. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the intellect, the touch on the intellect, the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intelect, as not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarde under ones control, and there is nothing taken when taking on it, as there is no owner perceivable.

This is how one miss-perceives the fact that there is an owner. Rejecting that there is an owner he takes on it althought not given and acts evil unskilful in regard of the owner.

Or he acts on relaying on wrong view objected in the world and denies the owner in regard of it's worth: there is nothing he can hold, to sacrifies, has no parents, no preparer, no owner.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 11:53:29 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2019, 11:51:20 AM »
And how can the factor of perceiving intention on an object be miss-perceived?

There is the case where a person, desiring on taking on what is not given, on facing it, is regarding his intention, thinks: "This is an intention on the eye, on the touch on the eye, on the object of the eye, form; on feelings, on consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on intention on touch on the eye, and it is not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarded under someones control, and so there is no intention of taking when taking on it as there is no one intending, no actor. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the intention on intellect, the intention on touch on the intellect, the intention on the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intention on intelect, as not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarded under ones control, and there is no intendion of taken when taking on it, as there is no one intending, no actor.

This is how one miss-perceives the fact that there is intention. Rejecting that there is an intention he takes on it althought not given and acts evil unskilful in regard of the owner.

Or he acts on relaying on wrong view objected in the world and denies the intention in regard of it's fruits and effects: there are no fruits and results of good or bad intentions, there is no heir of good and bad intentions.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:25:15 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2019, 12:06:36 PM »
And how can the factor of perceiving effort be miss-perceived?

There is the case where a person, desiring on taking on what is not given, on facing it, is regarding his effort, thinks: "This is an effort on the eye, on the touch on the eye, on the object of the eye, form; on feelings, on consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on effort on touch on the eye, and it, the effort, is not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarded as there being an actor, and so there is no effort of taking when taking on it as there is no actor. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the effort on intellect, the effort on touch on the intellect, the effort on the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the effort on intelect, as not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarded under ones control, and so there is no effort of taken when taking on it, as there is no actor.

This is how one miss-perceives the fact that there is effort. Rejecting that there is an effort he takes on it althought not given and acts evil unskilful in regard of the actor.

Or he acts on relaying on wrong view objected in the world and denies the effort in regard of there being an actor: although there is effort on desire, there is no actor, being there no actor, there is no heir of efforts effects and fruits.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:20:46 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2019, 12:18:27 PM »
Now how does one, in the position of a giver, avoid that others might fall into remorse or a actually into a transgression?

By ways of "Zuvorkommenheit" ("prevenience courtesy", habit of acting before [a wish would arise, be expressed], good if based on obligingness) is most important if wishing for the welfare of others.

It's therefore usual that if a new fellow arises in ones sphere of dwelling (except gross improper behavior is perceived, to the limits of ones fear of loos) to offer by speech the one of all ones possessions and of what can be used without being not given.

Why is the thought alone "oh may he take what ever he needs" not enough alone? Because it might be that someone has doubt, yet nevertheless takes, and although the "giver" had actually mentally agreed, he would nevertheless fall into a transgression.

It's usual that in good societies, if the case arises that one needs to ask, others in relation, being in a situation of duty, would be ashamed if such could happen.

In bad societies, there where the thoughts of wrong view domain, thoughts like "he could act as all of us", "why serving if nobody serves us/me" "only if there is a deal, deeds are well placed", "Zuvorkommenheit" is seen as weakness on both sides. For one side it is a loose of possibilities to win or get others in debts, and for the other side, the receiver, it's fear of getting in debt or being observed as receiver.

This is why in certain "poor" societies, even if not instructed and knowing limits of others, "Zuvorkommenheit" solves a lot of issues while in certain "rich" societies, although limits are known stinginess overwhelms any kind of "Zuvorkommenheit" and rather then releasing each other pulling each other more and more down to the point of breaking apart.

There is normally nevertheless no change to protect a person of no integrity from faults, as the wish to deny obligation, goodness and debt, domains. Related to this issue is there a short story about the matter of Giving, taking and the "new" world .
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +375/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2019, 07:20:04 PM »
Next to "Zuvorkommenheit" it's good to do not banter by letting things simply lie around, having an owner. Another might be habitual not care whether something has an owner or not it easy to take on. If deposing open to take it's good to declare it as well.

Especially this days people at large do not dare much if taking is possible especially in the internet-realm which is somehow considered similar like wild forest.

Not that others could in this way increase their debt (it could be that they are not wishing to have toward even good and liberation), they could also easy be motivated to don't care about doubt.

Doing such not is actually the modern way of getting people caught, whether they know it or not. There will be (actually are) a lot of slaves with heavy debts toward "free giver". Such situations, as people are not aware, yet nevertheless bond and depended, can cause very harmful actions to try to abound debts later in wrong ways.

So it's not such as an easy way to try to gain debtors with "free suggestions" because once "ones own" one is required to feed them on of which would not end when people firm bond in the world.

That is why monks, if not after catching and do favors, take care of things and place them best possible or mark things. Not because of stingy but simply that others would not fall in even bad situations, what at least also endangers themselves toward strange things.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Khemakumara

  • (Macel Pankonin)
  • Samanera
  • Active Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +39/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 24.07.2018
Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2019, 06:07:19 AM »
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Sadhu, Sadhu

Tags: