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Talkbox

Like when enter or join, a shrine, another's sphere, or back: good for greating, bye, veneration, short talks, quick help. Some infos on regards .


2024 Mar 24 19:07:11
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ 😌

2024 Mar 24 14:13:29
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 24 06:25:25
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha by following the conducts of the Arahats.

2024 Mar 23 13:11:16
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_

2024 Mar 21 01:07:56
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Mar 21 00:28:58
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 20 14:25:49
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 20 12:06:29
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Mar 20 11:24:06
blazer: Good morning everyone  _/\_

2024 Mar 18 21:42:50
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 18 19:43:59
Dhammañāṇa: Mudita, Nyom.

2024 Mar 18 19:36:35
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Undertaking this Sila day at my best.

2024 Mar 18 06:17:10
Dhammañāṇa: Those who undertake the Sila day today: may it be of much metta.

2024 Mar 18 02:16:41
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 17 21:09:31
អរិយវង្ស: 🚬🚬🚬

2024 Mar 17 06:30:53
Dhammañāṇa: Metta-full Sila day, those after it today.

2024 Mar 17 00:02:34
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 11 09:16:04
Dhammañāṇa: Once totally caught by google, AI and machines, every door has been closed for long, long term.

2024 Mar 11 09:14:04
Dhammañāṇa: People at large just wait that another would do his/her duty. Once a slight door to run back, they are gone. By going again just for debts, the wheel of running away turns on.

2024 Mar 10 18:59:10
Dhammañāṇa: Less are those who don't use the higher Dhamma not for defilement-defence, less those who don't throw the basics away and turn back to sensuality "with ease".

2024 Mar 10 06:51:11
Dhammañāṇa: A auspicious new-moon Uposatha for those observing it today.

2024 Mar 09 06:34:39
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed New-moon Uposatha, and birth reminder day of a monarchy of wonders.

2024 Mar 08 21:39:54
Dhammañāṇa: The best way to keep an Ashram silent is to put always duties and Sila high. If wishing it populated, put meditation (eating) on the first place.

2024 Mar 03 21:27:27
Dhammañāṇa: May those undertaking the Sila day today, spend it off in best ways, similar those who go after the days purpose tomorrow.

2024 Feb 25 22:10:33
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 24 06:42:35
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Māgha Pūjā and Full moon Uposatha with much reason for good recallings of goodness.

2024 Feb 24 01:50:55
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 23 06:39:57
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Feb 23 00:19:58
blazer: Taken flu again... at least leg pain has been better managed since many weeks and it's the greatest benefit. Hope Bhante Dhammañāṇa is fine  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 01:06:43
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 00:02:37
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 17 18:47:31
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of todays Sila-day.

2024 Feb 17 18:46:59
Dhammañāṇa: Chau Marco, chau...

2024 Feb 16 23:32:59
blazer: Just ended important burocratic and medical stuff. I will check for a flight for Cambodia soon  _/\_

2024 Feb 09 16:08:32
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 12:17:31
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 06:42:17
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed New moon Uposatha and last day of the Chinese year of the rabbit, entering the Year of the Naga wisely.

2024 Feb 02 21:17:28
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 02 19:53:28
Dhammañāṇa: May all have the possibility to spend a pleasing rest of Sila day, having given goodness and spend a faultless day.

2024 Jan 26 14:40:25
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 25 10:02:46
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Full moon Uposatha.

2024 Jan 11 06:37:21
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 07 06:31:20
Dhammañāṇa: May many, by skilful deeds,  go for real and lasting independence today

2024 Jan 06 18:00:36
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 16:57:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 12:33:08
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila-day, full of metta in thoughts, speech and deeds.

2023 Dec 30 20:21:07
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 27 23:18:38
Dhammañāṇa: May the rest of a bright full moon Uposatha serve many as a blessed day of good deeds.

2023 Dec 26 23:12:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 24 16:52:50
Dhammañāṇa: May all who celebrated the birth of their prophet, declaring them his ideas of reaching the Brahma realm, spend peaceful days with family and reflect the goodness near around them, virtuous, generously.

2023 Dec 20 21:36:37
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 20 06:54:09
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by conducting in peacefull manners.

2023 Dec 12 23:45:24
blazer:  _/\_

2023 Dec 12 20:34:26
Dhammañāṇa: choice, yes  :)

2023 Dec 12 13:23:35
blazer: If meaning freedom of choice i understand and agree

2023 Dec 12 12:48:42
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 12 06:13:23
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a great New Moon Uposatha, following the conducts of the Arahats.

2023 Dec 10 12:51:16
Dhammañāṇa: The more freedom of joice, the more troubled in regard of what's right, what's wrong. My person does not say that people at large are prepared for freedom of joice even a little.

2023 Dec 10 10:59:42
blazer: Hope they eat more mindfully than how they talk. It is clear for the gross food, we had more than a talk about this topic. I have put so much effort in mindful eating at the temple, but when i was back i wanted more refined food. I was used to get a choice of more than 10 dishes every day

2023 Dec 10 06:57:44
Dhammañāṇa: A person eating on unskilled thoughts will last defiled, Nyom. Gross food does nothing for purification at all.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:58
blazer: I've had a couple of not nice experiences with monks that were not so pure in my opinion. They surely eat far better than me at temple.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:41
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 09 11:38:36
Dhammañāṇa: Spiritual prostitution, just another way of livelihood.

2023 Dec 05 20:59:38
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 27 14:47:22
អរិយវង្ស:   _/\_ _/\__/\_

2023 Nov 27 05:41:32
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Anapanasati- Fullmoon and reflect the goodness of Ven Sāriputta as well today.

2023 Nov 20 19:18:13
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 20 18:20:15
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 20 02:48:24
Moritz: Hello _/\_ Still possible to join: An-other Journey into the East 2023/24

2023 Nov 18 13:55:11
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 12 01:09:01
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2023 Nov 12 00:45:21
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 19:42:10
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 07:17:02
Dhammañāṇa: សិលា​នាំ​ទៅ​រក​ឯករាជ្យ​នៃ​ជាតិ! សូមឱ្យមនុស្សជាច្រើនប្រារព្ធទិវាឯករាជ្យ(ពី)ជាតិ។

2023 Nov 09 07:06:56
Dhammañāṇa: Sila leads to independence of Jati! May many observe a conductive Independence day.

2023 Nov 07 00:54:02
Dhammañāṇa: Nyoum

2023 Nov 07 00:39:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 15:47:51
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 12:21:27
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila observation day today.

2023 Oct 30 15:17:36
Dhammañāṇa: It's common in to give up that what's given to do assist me toward release, common that seeking security in what binds.

2023 Oct 30 13:22:27
អរិយវង្ស: ព្រះអង្គ :) កូណាលុប delta chat ហើយ :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 23 18:56:09
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 22 20:36:01
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of this Sila-day.

2023 Oct 19 20:31:12
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom Sreyneang

2023 Oct 15 07:07:01
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 14 06:53:21
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a New moon Uposatha based on goodwill for all, find seclusion in the middle of family duties.

2023 Sep 29 07:35:30
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:23:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:03:11
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha and begin of the ancestor weeks by lived metta and virtue: lived gratitude toward all being, toward one self.

2023 Sep 22 22:07:43
Dhammañāṇa: If no rush turn toward reducing sensuality and make Silas the top of priority, it's to fear that an Atomic conflic will be chosen soon, in the battle of control of the "drugs".

2023 Sep 22 14:59:39
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 22 06:35:51
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Uposatha Observance on this Sila-day, by conducting similar the Arahats.

2023 Sep 16 19:29:27
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 16 19:29:13
blazer: Hello everyone! I've just come back home. I had a long trip and no sleep for more than 30 hours, but currently feel quite good. I've had a good experience, i'm happy. I've found out much inspiration and many ideas about the training and the holy life. I'll recollect and write about them as soon as i've taken some rest. Hope to find you all well and in good health  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 15 05:25:24
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 14 21:09:49
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of New moon Uposatha today (later as no connection before).

2023 Sep 10 01:55:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_?

2023 Sep 09 18:52:54
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 09 18:52:28
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 08 06:19:20
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by maintaining goodwill toward all, not only by deeds and speech, but with nine factors, incl. a mind full of metta.

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Author Topic: Staatenlosigkeit - Ordination unmöglich für Westler (Nichtbuddhistische Kultur)?  (Read 6508 times)

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Offline Dhammañāṇa

  • Bhikkhu
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +417/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • (Samana Johann)
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
* Johann Attma hat hierzu auch ein "Spiegelthema" im Klosterbereich angelegt um es dort auch diskutieren zu können. Attma kennt die Sicht der Sangha und wie sie das "umgehen" nicht. Der Kompromiss und wie dies geht ist Attma unbekannt und würde ihn interessieren. Die Ehrenwerten Mönche und Nonnen (wenn diese auch ein Thema aufmachen wollen, im Bhikkhu Bereich hat sich Samana erlaubt dies zu tun, der "Bhikkhuni-Bereich" geht ihn nichts an, soweit.) sind gerne dorthin eingeladen und diese Bereiche sind nicht für Nichtklösterliche einsehbar.

Sind alle westlichen Ordinationen eigentlich illegal, weil der Staat gar nicht weiß was sie (die sich um Vollordination bemühen) tun?

Ein zwischen Weltlichen Ansichten und Samma Ditthi bewegendes Thema. Kommt man Micca Ditthi heute, kommt man Ansichten heute noch aus?

Attma macht wieder ein dickes Fass auf, mit dem man sich international auf höchster Ebene beschaftigen sollte und könnte, der auch ein Weg wäre, Mönchen dort zu spechen, wo man etwas bewegen würde, bei den Herrschern dieser Welt. Ob man das sieht... Attma ist zuversichtlich und würde zu gern mit Leuten, mit Dhammika wie Helmut Hecker sprechen, die sich da sicher vielleicht auch schon Gedanken gemacht haben.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

8) Bist du ein freier Mann?    SĀ: "Ich bin, Ehrwürdiger Herr!"    

8) Bhujiso'si? "Āma, bhante."

Sind westliche Mönche entweder dem Staat oder der Sangha und dem Weg Buddhas untreu, gehen Sie einen dort oder da nicht den Regeln entsprechenden Weg?

Eine Grundbedingung für die Hochordination ist, das man frei ist und frei gehen kann.

In einem Land wie Kambodscha bekommen Sie sozusagen die erlaubnis des Staataheeren sich der Sangha anzuschließen.

Was hier seltsam klingt, ist im Westen vielleicht noch viel schlimmer.

Attma weiß nicht, wie es in anderen Ländern ist, aber ein Österreicher darf seine Staatsbürgerschaft nicht ablegen, wenn es nicht eine andere hat. (Wie das mit diesen philosophischen Ideen von Grundrechen zusammen gehen kann, die einfach immer ein absurdum sind, wie man sie dreht und wendet, möchte Attma hier gar nicht nachfragen. Da kommt man vielleicht drauf, das muslimische Länder gar nicht so ihre Bürger rechtlich aber mehr physisch einengen wie so manche westliche.)

Ein heißes Thema, für Attma aber sehr interessant, da er sich dort bewegt und vielen Kopfzerbrechen bereitet. Attma ist ein "Zu"-flüchtling und wird sicher noch viele Anstrengungen brauchen um solches auch verständlich und von "Staaten" akzeptiert zu haben. Attma versucht hier den Weg von zu einer "Illegalität" als vielleicht mal Bhikkhu (Bettler, Hausloser, Zugehörigkeitsloser) zu leben frei zu schlagen in einem Land, wo das noch funktionieren müsste und aus einem Land, wo man das nicht verstehen würde.
Attma ist sicher kein Untergenberner von Konzepten und Ideen, dann doch lieber ein Herrscher, der ziehen lässt oder eben nicht.

Quote from:
Verzicht auf die österreichische Staatsbürgerschaft
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Besitzt man neben der österreichischen Staatsbürgerschaft gleichzeitig noch eine fremde Staatsangehörigkeit, kann auf die österreichische Staatsbürgerschaft durch eine schriftliche Erklärung beim zuständigen Amt der Landesregierung verzichtet werden. Ein Verzicht auf die österreichische Staatsbürgerschaft ist nicht möglich, wenn man dadurch staatenlos wird.

Wie schnell man zum illegalen Flüchtling, zum Staatsverfolgten wird  :) Wer hätte das je von einem "Österreicher" gedacht. Das muß sich Attma auf der Zunge zergehen lassen, diese verzweifelten Versuche die Systeme der Welt mit Konzepten bewältigen zu wollen und nicht mehr auf die Güte von Wesen und Herrschern zu vertrauen.  :)

Nicht so einfach das Rad der falschen Ansichten irgendwie zu umwinden, ihm aus dem Wege zu gehen. Aber irgendwie (auf dem Dhammaweg natürlich nur) geht das seit langer Zeit für ihm und wird von Menschen (sicher nicht von ihren Konzepten ohne Persönlichkeiten, so gut wie immer akzeptiert, ist nur dort oder da völlig illegal.

Wie frei sind Sie, können Sie sich überhaupt der Sangha anschließen?

Es ist schön, wenn Ihnen ein Thailändischer König, oder ein Kamodschanischer Herrscher oder ein Sri Lanka Staat die Ordination gewährt, aber was sagt ihr "Staatsherr" ihr Herr dazu? Dürfen Sie das überhaupt, in die Hauslosigkeit ziehen?

Geht das heute noch?

Ist dieser Weg überhaupt noch offen für Westler in der heutigen Zeit?

Wer könnte heute in die Hauslosigkeit ziehen?
Befreit man Sklaven, wenn man Westler Ordiniert?
Sind heute alle Vollordiantationen eigentlich illegal und machen sich Mönche vielleicht auch diesem, wenn beabsichtigt und bewußt (Pārājika 2 - Stehlen ) schuldig, wenn sie dies wissen?

Quote from: Auszug aus dieser freien Übersetzung des BMC, von Bhikkhu Thanissaro
Einen Damm brechen, sodaß das Wasser herausfließt: Wasser in einem See, Kanal oder Reservoir.
Verursachen, daß ein Tier all seine Beine bewegt: zweibeinig (dies inkludiert menschliche Wesen, d.h. Sklaven), vierbeinige, vielbeinige Tiere. Entsprechend dem Kommentar passt diese gleich ob man das Tier berührt oder einfach durch Verführung oder Behandlung ohne es zu berühren bewegt. Wenn ein Tier am liegt, ist bloßes Dazubringen sich auf die Beine zu stellen als nehmen zu zählen. In dem Fall wo man einem Sklaven hilft, aus der Sklaverei zu entfiehel und der Sklave folgt dieser Anordnung oder dem Rat, ist man des Stehlens schuldig; doch wenn jemand einen Sklaven über gute Wege informiert, wie man zu Freiheit kommt oder ihm Nahrung oder Schutz auf seinem Weg gibt, begeht man kein Vergehen.
Hier dieses Zitat um zu sehen, dass eine Anstiftung (aus welchem Beweggrund auch immer) zu gewissen Dingen nicht sehr des Erfinder Gedanken entsprechen würde.

Attma möchte mit dem Thema auch aufzeigen, wie es um eine "technische Existenz" der Sangha in dieser Welt steht und wie zu es eigentlich schon ist, wenn man nicht nur einem alternativen Lebenswandel nachgehen möchte. Soetwas kann man überall installieren.

Ein heißes Thema, für jene, die es verstehen.

Attma ist es bewußt, das man sich dort und da zu Zwischenwege mit Kompromissen und dadurch mit Abhängigkeiten geschaffen hat und spricht hier nur von Originalwegen. Das Thema ist überall auf der Welt present, weil die alten Systeme in ein paar Jahren verschwunden sind, es keine Führer und Könige sondern nur mehr Konzepte die dirigieren, Ansichten, denen man sich mit Geburt unterwirft. Eine sehr Hinduistische/Brahmanische Welt... kommt ihnen das bekannt vor?

Attma ist aus weltlicher Sicht ein Flüchtling (Zufüchtnehmer)  :) wenn jemand fragen sollte, und könnte die Frage, die ein Odinierender stellen würde, heute nicht mehr mit einem klaren "Ja" beantworten, weil er dieses heute gelesen hat. So sieht er das und dies zu ändern, zu können, wird noch viel Arbeit und wird noch viel Unruhe erzeugen muß er bedenken...

Quote from: Gedanken und Reflexionen von Johann
Lohnt dies? Sollte er da nicht besser alleine ziehen. Es war ihm doch klar, warum versucht er etwas was gar nicht mehr geht?

Warum hat er früher stets auf die Frage "Wollen sie sich nicht als Mönch einweichen lassen?", eines Mönches geantwortet: "In dieser Existenz wird das wahrscheinlich nicht gehen...", spontan (er "kannte" damals das Dhamma und die Tradition der Noblen nicht, war ihm nicht bewusst, aber das was man als Mönch hier lebte war ihm wohl gleich fremd).

Er hat sich doch aus "erbarmen" als "Samanera" eingeweiht (auch wenn er sich darüber gefreut hat, das man ihm dieses Vertrauen schenkte, ohne Reputation und das er dies schlicht vor Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha machte und an keinem anderen Ort, vor keiner "Person"), das die Mönche ihn einordnen können, nicht ganz verwirrt sind. "Wer sind Sie, was sollen wir mit einem Samana anfangen, der nicht eingeweiht ist? Wir haben da viele Probleme und Konflikte wenn ein nichteingeweihter mit uns lebt...."

[Dieses Thema wäre sicher englisch auch interessant, da es ein sehr globales ist]
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 05:56:08 PM by Johann »
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Offline Dhammañāṇa

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Was Attma hier aber gleich bemerken möchte, dieses Thema ist hier in diesem virtuellen Kloster (Aschram) kein Politthema (wir befinden uns im offenen Vihara und behandeln Ordinationsangeleiten und das Leben der Sangha), so etwas kommt hier nicht herein und es geht hier um rechte (Samma Ditthi) und falsche (Miccha Ditthi) Ansichten in dieser Welt und nicht um diese und jene Ansichten (Miccha Ditthi) in abwägung und soll Gruppen wie "Anarchistischen Buddhisten" und anderen Laien aber auch Mönchs Politgruppen mit ihren Ansichten zu keinem Fußhalt helfen, den Boden zieht Attma ihnen sofort mit anderen Ansichten und Samma Ditthi weg und all diese Dinge sind für den Weisen (jenen der das heilige Leben geht) uninteressant, er beobachtet die Welt und lebt einen anderen Weg, mischt sich nicht ein.

Nicht das man das Thema falsch sieht, es soll nur etwas Licht werfen, wie es um ("wirklicher") Sangha in dieser Welt steht und wie weit man das heilige Leben leben kann. "Offiziell" jedenfalls vielleicht noch an manchen Orten, als Bettler eben, so Attmas Sicht, man kann es nur wahr leben und alles andere ist Lebensunterhalt und "Spiel".

Ein Weiser respektiere die Art wie andere Wesen leben und er lebt in Abhängigkeit dieser Welt und nicht abgeschieden, für sich alleine, vielleicht noch angemerkt. Er ist von der Güte in der Welt, oder seinen alten Verdiensten die ihm diese zukommen lassen abhängig und es dem Mönch die Reputation, die Güte Buddhas solch einen Weg erlauben. Dessen sollte sich ein Bettler bewußt sein.

Die Quintessenz, oder das was ein buddhistischerLaie sehen sollte, oder erkennt, ist das er einen Sozialstaat, ein sozialsystem benutzend keinesweg freier wird. Er/sie verbraucht alte Verdienste oder nutzt sie nicht aus.
Es ist aus dhammischer Sicht viel gefährlicher im Wohlstand zu leben, denken Sie an den Prinz Gotma im Palast und an die Schweinehälter und das Schwein. Freiheit ist etwas was man sich erarbeiten muß und auch wenn man sie geschenkt bekommt, war sie verdient. Man kann sie nicht er-demonstrieren, "das ist mein Recht", "Es gibt Gaben, es gibt Opfer" und es ist nun mal so, das Arbeit frei macht, mit Körper, mit Sprache und vor allem mit Geist. Da lass Attma einmal ein Sutta über die drei Arten der Freiheit, oder waren es vier...
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 01:23:06 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Dhammañāṇa

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Nur um zu sehen, daß dieses Thema auch sehr, Attma sagt mal, "urchristlich" und verloren gegangen ist, wie heute alle "Religionen" in den fünf Sinnen und vor allem in Ansichten verloren gehen, hier ein Auszug aus dem Wikipedia "Heimatlosigkeit". Nicht das man glaubt, dass dies ein, wie oft leider zu erleben, "anarchischer" Angriff von "Buddhisten" auf den Staat oder die Politik ist.

Schließlich wird auch in einem religiösen Kontext von Heimatlosigkeit gesprochen. Vor allem im christlichen Kontext der Nachfolge Christi gilt Heimatlosigkeit neben Familienlosigkeit und Besitzlosigkeit als ein Merkmal eines apostolischen Lebensstils. Dabei steht jedoch die Relativierung und der Verlust der irdischen Heimat im Gegensatz zum Gewinn der "himmlischen Heimat" bei Gott.

Attma fragt nicht, wieviel christliche Samanas es heute noch auf dieser Welt gibt...

Dies Themen sind für Deutsche vielleicht interessant, keine Ahnung wie es um die "Rechte" der Deutschen selber und ihren Möglichkeiten zur Hauslosigkeit stet. Ich denke man nimmt an sich selbst dort zu befinden wo alles passt...

Heimatloser Ausländer (wiki)

So wie das Attma sieht, natürlich nur kurz geblickt, könnte man als "Heimatloser Ausländer" in Deutschland ein heiliges Leben führen, es stellt sich die Frage, ob ein Deutscher oder ein Westler selbst in aller Land heimatlos sein darf.

Diese Wikithemen sind natürlich nur Einstiege und man muß immer gut selbst recherchieren. Für Gedankenansätze sind sie aber immer gut.

Es bleibt jedenfalls spannend, ob man in einem buddhistischen Land, einem Land das Flüchtlingsleben kennt, "Religionsflüchtlinge" wie Heimatlose Ausländer akzeptiert werden. Attma weiß nun (oder sagen wir mal er kann sich oder macht sich nun seine Gedanken...), warum er über kambodschanische Flüchtlinge hier her gefunden hat... *demut*

Österreich kennt man hier so gut wie nicht, und jene, die Österreich (Attma sagt auf die Frage, was sein Stamm ist, sein Volk, seine Rasse, wie man hier sagt ist, wenn er darauf eingeht stets: "Mensch... geboren an einem Ort, den die Leute heute Österreich nennen." Nach dem ... kommt dann erst wenn man nicht hier schon zornig wird, wenig Freiheit im Denken hat und ist Zeit für Attma weiter zu gehen.) kennen, halten es für ein Land von heiligen. So ist das hier, mit der Reputation und so ist das wie man seiner Gruppe in welchem System auch immer helfen und schaden kann. Sie kennen das, wenn sie von Vorverurteilungen, die ihre Gründe haben, von anderen (z.B. Schwarzafrikanern) denken. So haben auch Deutsche dort und da ihren Ruf. Wenn man dann noch erwähnt, dass Österreich heute ca. 84.000 km2 groß ist, kommt der Nationalstolz eines Bewohners eines buddistischen Landes, in dem das Volk die Drei Juwelen als Eigentum oder eigenes sieht, auf.  :)


* Johann bemerk, dass er in vielen Themen nun mehr "Geschichten die das Leben" schreibt einbringt, so wie in vielen Erzählungen des Tipitakas es nicht nur um Therorie sondern um Erzählungen geht. So transportiert man mehr und macht Dhamma als Weg/Lehre Buddhas und Gespräche darüber nicht zu einer philosophische Theorie, für was man "Buddhismus" im Westen gerne hält, ein "Hirngespenst" sozusagen und ein spielen damit. Nein, es ist eine Art zu Leben und darüber hinaus.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 02:35:08 PM by Johann »
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Offline Dhammañāṇa

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Diese ist eine Frage, denen speziell Mönche, wenn man Sie genauer fragt ausweichen. In gewisser Weise verständlich, aber was bringt es sich etwas vorzugaukeln oder zusammenzudenken.

Also soweit Atma blicken kann und gesehen hat, scheint das Einweihen als Mönch entsprechend der Vinaya, im Hinblick auf Staatsbürgerschaft, damit verbudnenen Rechte und Pflichten technisch gar nicht mehr möglich zu sein, zumindest in den Ländern, wo Atma etwas über deren Gesetze Bescheid weis.

Auch wenn Atma so weiter denkt, könnte es durchaus sein, daß damit die Lineage, aufgrund der vielleicht ungültigen Ordiantionen der heutigen Generation an Mönche, die ja soweit Atma das sieht, alle samt mit Staatsburgerschaft oder heute entwickelter Mönchsbürgerschaft im Rahmen der Staatsbürgerschaft Bhujiso'si? mit "Āma, bhante." beantwortet haben, auch der männlichen der Sangha bereits unterbrochen ist.

Sollte da noch eine Lücke sein, oder sollten da noch Mönche der Alten Generation sein, die vielleicht an Orten, unter zusagen des Landesherrschers ihr Land und Plichten vor der Ordination aufgegeben haben und sozusagen rechtens Ordiniert sind, wäre es gut von denen und den äußeren Umständen zu wissen sodaß meine Befürchtung nicht ganz so zu fürchten ist.

Auch wenn dieses Thema der Ehrw. Sangha und deren Mitglieder vielleicht nicht behagen mag, wäre es verantwortungsvoller sich den Tatsachen zu stellen und nach möglichen Lösungen zu suchen. Bloßes Verneinen eines "Problems" macht es ja nicht ungeschehen, im Gegenteil, schlittert man nur tiefer hinein.

Technisch gesehen, man mag es vielleicht spitzfindig nennen, ist es eigentlich nicht möglich, heute ohne Staatsbürgerschaft oder Pass, andere Länder über Grenzabfertigungen zu betreten. Würde man eine Staatsbürgerschaft vorweisen, würde man wohl seine Bhikkhu-schaft damit betrügen auch wenn es normalen Leuten kein Problem darstellen wurde.

Atma denkt, daß es soetwas wie die Möglichkeit des "Vogelfreiseins" vielleicht gar nicht mehr gibt, oder nur mehr an sehr wenigen Plätzen, die die moderen Welt ja mit riesen Schritten in sich hinein zieht. Solche Plätze, wo noch Könige und Herrscher Regieren und die Macht haben der Sangha oder Noblen Bettlern Freiheiten einzuräumen und sie von den Pflichten den allgemeinen Volkes befreit.

Dieses die Fragen eines Flüchtlings, einer Person die sich keine andere Zuflucht als die Drei Juwelen genommen hat und daran ohne jeglichen Zweifel hält.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 12:51:57 PM by Johann »
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Dear Johann,

I prepared the answer to your email “citizenship and hopefully not reasonable sorrows” in a pdf file of 4 pages. Since there is no application here to include attachments for pdf, etc. you may let me know how to do so.     

With Metta and best wishes,

Nyanadassana.


Moritz in function as admin   *

Edit (May 25): PDF file attached after correspondence with Ven. Nyanadassana

Edit (May 27): content of attached PDF file pasted in text format below with kind permission from Ven. Nyanadassana




Ven. Ñāṇadassana     
06/05/2016     

Dear Johann,

As far as I understand from your email titled “citizenship and hopefully not reasonable sorrows”, you mean that Bhujisso’si? has to do with “giving up citizenship and leaving the rights as well as the duties in regard of [sic] the Nation behind”, and by not doing so “Samanera ... fears that such ordinations are actually invalid”; and “Samanera needs to come to the conclusion that the Sangha will be extincted [sic] within this very generation”.

I don’t know how you got these doom and gloom ideas, but there isn’t a single passage in the Pāḷi canon and its commentaries to support them. Bhujisso, which is usually translated as “a freeman or freier Mann”, has a very specific meaning in Pāḷi, that is: a slave (dāso) who is freed, or a person who is not a serf or a slave. Please see the PTS Pali-English Dictionary under bhujissa and English Dictionaries under freeman = not a slave.

Now, in relation to Vinaya, a slave (dāsa) should not be ordained and it is a dukkaṭa offence for any bhikkhu who ordains him, for it is said, “Na, bhikkhave, dāso pabbājetabbo. Yo pabbājeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassā’ti.” (Vin i.72, 76, Mahā-vagga). Conversely, bhujisso means, according to the Sāratthadīpanī subcommentary, a non-slave (adāso), who is allowed to be ordained, because he is not the property of another person (para-pariggahit’ābhā-vato).

In contrast, a slave (dāso) is a person who is the property of another, is owned by him, bought and sold accordingly, has no citizen rights (keine Bürgerrechte) whatsoever, and whose labour and also whose life often is subject to the owner’s volition; who is legally obliged by prior contract (oral or written) to work for another, with contractually limited rights to bargain; who is forced against his/her will to peform, for another person or other persons, acts or services on a regular or continuing basis. Should he flee or try to escape, he risks a severe punishment, or even death.

A freeman, on the other hand, is a full citizen (Vollbürger), legally recognized as a member of a state (Staatsbürger), with civil rights (Bürgerrechte) to exercise his own volition in choosing his profession, occupation, labour, employer, political or religious leader, lifestyle, religion, etc. This includes fundamental freedoms and privileges, and legal, social and economic rights. He is thus not dependent on a master for his life, nor does he live depending on another’s choice without using his own discretion. An example for his economic freedom, at the least, can be gathered from the Suttanipāta Commentary where a man called Dhaniyo expressed his freemanship (bhujissa-bhāva) thus: “I am self-reliant on my earnings and maintenance” (atta-vetana-bhato hamasmi).

Now, in the Pāḷi texts the very antithesis between a slave (dāso) and a freeman (bhujisso) is described thus:

Quote
72. ‘Just as a man might be a slave (dāso), not self-dependent, not his own master (an’attādhīno), dependent on another (parādhīno), unable to go where he liked (na yenakāmaṅgamo), and after some time he might be freed from slavery (dāsabyā mucceyya), be self-dependent (attādhīno), be not dependent on another (aparādhīno), be a freeman (bhujisso) and able to go where he liked (yenakāmaṅgamo), might think: “Before this I was a slave (dāso), ... now ... I am a freeman (bhujisso) ...” And he would rejoice and be glad about that.’

(e.g. DN Sāmaññaphala Sutta)

A similar antithesis is described between slavery (dāsabyaŋ) and freemanship (bhujissaŋ):
Quote
74. ‘As long, as a bhikkhu does not perceive the disappearance of the five hindrances in himself, he feels as if in debt (iṇa), in sickness (roga), in jail (bandhan’āgāra), in slavery (dāsabyaŋ), and on a long desert route (kantār’addhāna-magga). But when he perceives the disappearance of the five
hindrances in himself, it is as if he were free of debt (āṇaṇya), in good health (ārogya), in freedom from jail (bandhanāmokkha), in freemanship (bhujissaŋ), and on a safe ground (khemanta-bhūmi).

ibid.

It is worth noting here that a candidate for higher ordination should also be debtless (aṇaṇo), healthy in respect to serious sicknesses or afflictions (roga or ābādha, such as leprosy, boils, epilepsy, etc.), not condemned in jail or prison (kārā in Vin i. 75), and not be a slave (dāso) but a freeman (bhujissa). Moreover, in Vin i. 76, 77 the prohibitions of ordaining a candidate in debt (iṇāyiko) and a slave (dāso) occur together, one after the other, i.e. § 96, “Na, bhikkhave, iṇāyiko pabbājetabbo”, and § 97, “Na, bhikkhave, dāso pabbājetabbo.” Similarly, the allowance of ordaining a candidate who is a freeman (bhujisso) and free of debt (aṇaṇo) occur together in the questionnaire of the higher ordination when teachers ask: “Are you a freeman? (bhujisso’si?); are you free of debt (aṇaṇo’si?) Thus, all these correlations shows that bhujisso means the opposite of a slave (dāso), and has nothing to do with given up citizenship.

In regard to a slave, the Vinaya Commentary on Vin i. 77, § 97 says that if he is freed from slavery in line with the country’s customs and law, he may go forth or ordain. It explicitly employs the synonyms, “Adāsaŋ katvā ... bhujisse katvā pabbājetuŋ vaññati” (After making him non-slave ...after making him freeman it is fitting to ordain him).

Therefore, a slave (dāsa) has to become a freeman (bhujissa), a regular, free and full citizen (Vollbürger) before getting ordained. It is not the other way round you say that a freeman (bhujissa) has to “give up citizenship and leave the rights as well as the duties in regard of the Nation behind”.

Two other noteworthy points to be mentioned are:

1. The similarity between a slave and a government servant (rājabhaṭa) and their difference to a freeman

Just as there is the prohibition in Vinaya not to ordain a slave, so there is a prohibition not to ordain a government servant, such a soldier, police officer, or other uniformed professional. The latter is called rājabhaṭa in Pāḷi, which literally means “hired (bhaṭa) by the king, ruler or government (rāja)”, and he is thus bound to government or military services, not free to desert or flee at will. Should he desert, he can be severely punished or even killed. Thus, he is basically the property of the ruler, is owned by him, and his labour and also life often is subject to the ruler's volition. In a sense, he is a part-time paid slave, who for convenience is called “servant”, as long as in service. He should thus not be ordained, for it is said, “Na, bhikkhave, rājabhaṭo pabbājetabbo. Yo pabbājeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassā’ti.” (Vin i.74).

Now, in order to get ordained, he needs to be free from government service by getting official permission to relinquish his duties, and thus become a civilian, a free and full citizen (Vollbürger), or in a sense a freeman (bhujissa). Therefore both, a slave (dāsa) and a rājabhaṭa, have to become regular citizens and free civilians before getting ordained, and not the other way round that they have to “give up citizenship and leave the rights as well as the duties in regard of the Nation behind”.

2. Disqualifications and Invalid Ordinations

The other noteworthy point is about disqualifications, i.e. the factors that would bar an applicant from receiving ordination—either the going-forth (pabbajjā) or the higher ordination (upasampadā)—or make the ordination invalid if already received. These fall into three categories:

  • absolute disqualification baring him for life — even if the applicant receives ordination, the ordination is invalid and he does not count as ordained; and the bhikkhus who ordain him incur a dukkaṭa offence.
  • disqualification as an undesirable member of the Community — if he happens to be ordained, he counts as ordained, but the bhikkhus participating in the ordination incur a dukkaṭa; and
  • disqualification as being formally unprepared for higher ordination (for instance, he lacks robes and an alms-bowl)—usually classified as the same class as the undesirable, above.

These categories are to be understood as follows:

  • absolute disqualification—In Vinaya there are all-in-all thirteen persons who are absolutely disqualified (abhabba-puggalā), and even they receive ordination, it is totally invalid, they should be disrobed and expelled (nāsetabba), and the bhikkhus who ordain them incur a dukkaṭa offence.
    The thirteen persons are:
    • paṇḍako (a eunuch),
    • theyyasaŋvāsako (one taken affiliation by theft, i.e. putting on robes without the authorization of the Sangha, and/or claiming rights of samanerahood or bhikkhuhood, such as seniority, etc. without an ordination according to the Vinaya standards),
    • titthiyapakkantako (one gone over to another religion while still a bhikkhu),
    • tiracchānagato (an animal),
    • mātughātako (a matricide),
    • pitughātako (a patricide),
    • arahantaghātako (a killer of an arahant),
    • bhikkhunidūsako (a molester of a bhikkhunī),
    • saṅghabhedako (one successfully creating a schism in the Sangha),
    • lohituppādako (one maliciously injuring the Tathāgata to the point of drawing blood), and
    • ubhatobyañjanako (a hermaphrodite). — (Vin. i. 86)
    • pārājiko (one who committed a parājika offence while previously a bhikkhu and becomes thus asaŋvāso (no longer in communion)) —( Vin. iii. 23, Pārājika), and
    • 13. ūnavīsativasso puggalo (a person of less than twenty years of age in the case of higher ordination). —(Vin. iv. 130, Pācittiya 65)
  • disqualification as an undesirable member —An applicant, such as a slave (dāsa), a government servant (rājabhaṭa), a person in debt (iṇāyika), etc. should not be given the Going-forth (na pabbājetabbo). As Going-forth is the customary first step in higher ordination, this means that they should not receive higher ordination, either. Any bhikkhu who gives any of these applicants the Going-forth incurs a dukkaṭa (yo pabbājeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassa). However, since these applicants do not have the absolute disqualification as a paṇḍaka, theyyasaŋvāsaka, etc. and since this prohibition does not include the clause “should be disrobed or expelled” (nāsetabbā), they do count as having properly gone forth if they get ordained. And if they receive the higher ordination, it is valid and they should not be expelled (na nāsetabbā). The bhikkhus who ordain them, however, incur a dukkaṭa offence. Hence scrupulous bhikkhus do not ordain them without making sure that they are freemen (bhujissa), not government servants (rājabhaṭa), not debtors (iṇāyika), etc. To do so especially nowadays, legal documents, such as certificates, identity cards, passports, andso on, which officially verify their civil status, etc. are necessary.
  • disqualification as being formally unprepared —As explained above, this category is usually classified under the second one and refers to applicants without an alms bowl or a full set of robes, with a borrowed alms bowl or a borrowed set of robes, and without a proper preceptor. Anyone who participates in ordaining them incurs a dukkaṭa. However, if they happen to receive ordination, their ordination is valid.
    (Please see also Ven. Thaṇissaro’s Buddhist Monastic Code II, CHAPTER 14 : Ordination , 2007–2011)

Here now, none of these categories mentions anything about ordinations becoming actually invalid by not giving up citizenship and leaving the rights as well as the duties in regard of the Nation behind, as you publicly state, and that the Sangha will be extinct within this very generation because of such “invalid ordinations”. Such statements are utterly untenable in Vinaya terms and look over exaggerated.

Regarding the Sutta-piṭaka, there is the Pahārāda Sutta in Aïguttara Nikāya that refers to members of the four main classes (vaṇṇas) of Indian society who, after going forth in the Tathāgata's Dhamma Vinaya, `give up their former names and clans' (jahanti purimāni nāma-gottāni), and are simply designated as “ascetics following the Sakyan son” (“samaṇā sakyaputtiyā” tveva saṅkhaṃ gacchanti); that is, they follow the Buddha, they are designated as Buddhists. But even here there is no mention about giving up citizenship and leaving the rights as well as the duties in regard of the Nation behind, but only about being called Buddha’s followers. Besides, it is probably due to the Pahārāda Sutta and other places in the canon which repeat the same passage, that there is the tradition in Buddhist communities to change one’s lay name after going forth and adopt a Buddhist or Pāḷi name (Buddharakkhita, Dhammarakkhita, etc.) as a designation that one is no more a layman, a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. But again, this is done as an outward religious designation and has nothing to do about giving up citizenship, and the rest.

As I will not have time to further discuss this or other topic, I hope that you will investigate the Pāḷi texts, reconsider your position and come to a reasonable conclusion.

With Mettā and best wishes in Dhamma Vinaya,

Ñāṇadassana.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 07:36:18 AM by Administration »

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Venerable Nyanadassana,

welcome here and I hope you are not feeling too troubled by the technical complications and restrictions.

You can attach pdf and other files to a message if you are logged in with your user account instead of posting as a guest.

It seems that Venerable Johann had already prepared one for you. The user name is "Nyanadassana". If you don't know your password you can set a new one by following the procedure on this page .

(I have now assigned your posting to your user account.)

There is also a thread in the monstic social area on the topic as Bhante Johann mentioned, for the case that it is better suited there and not appropriate for interested laypeople.

You could also send it as an email to forumadmin@sangham.net and I could take care of it according to your wishes.

With metta and best wishes

_/\_

Moritz (now logged in as admin)

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Sadhu! Sadhu Sadhu! Samanera just had the chance to bekomm aware of your compassion, but will not be able to read ready for now, please do not see it as respectless and short cuted, Ven. Bhante Nyanadassana.

Upasaka Moritz , Administration , Bhante schould have all rights  possibilities hier in Open Vihara an its good to help when wishes accure. Its a matter only Laipeople can solve, so its well placed as well on proper place reseived and answered.

No detail knowlege about the answer yet.

Mudita and deep respect anyhow in adwanced, need to use the given time to share a latter here. Sadhu for your Umsichtigkeit.
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Quote from: Ven. Ñāṇadassana
Ven. Ñāṇadassana     
06/05/2016     

Dear Johann,

As far as I understand from your email titled “citizenship and hopefully not reasonable sorrows”, you mean that Bhujisso’si? has to do with “giving up citizenship and leaving the rights as well as the duties in regard of [sic] the Nation behind”, and by not doing so “Samanera ... fears that such ordinations are actually invalid”; and “Samanera needs to come to the conclusion that the Sangha will be extincted [sic] within this very generation”.
_/\_
Yes and no Ven. Bhante Nyanadassana , for his person he does not fear anything, he lives good an confortable with the 3 Gems as the one an only refuge an without any sign of an householder. Its possible and its not an expression of "just" faith.
Actually Samana fears that it is good possible, that it is already gone, since where ever he goes he sees "householders" giving ordination to householders (even if they where robes, they have not even outwartly left (Vinaya) nor to estimate inwardly.
Its not possible to go forth not leaving this signs behind, not to speak about wrong view of such as rights an personaly view. no chance to even catch Sotpanna, the Stream.
If how could a Buerger, someone who buergs vor the Staat, has duties in the world, be seen as a babajita?
Quote

I don’t know how you got these doom and gloom ideas, but there isn’t a single passage in the Pāḷi canon and its commentaries to support them. Bhujisso, which is usually translated as “a freeman or freier Mann”, has a very specific meaning in Pāḷi, that is: a slave (dāso) who is freed, or a person who is not a serf or a slave. Please see the PTS Pali-English Dictionary under bhujissa and English Dictionaries under freeman = not a slave.

Now, in relation to Vinaya, a slave (dāsa) should not be ordained and it is a dukkaṭa offence for any bhikkhu who ordains him, for it is said, “Na, bhikkhave, dāso pabbājetabbo. Yo pabbājeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassā’ti.” (Vin i.72, 76, Mahā-vagga). Conversely, bhujisso means, according to the Sāratthadīpanī subcommentary, a non-slave (adāso), who is allowed to be ordained, because he is not the property of another person (para-pariggahit’ābhā-vato).

In contrast, a slave (dāso) is a person who is the property of another, is owned by him, bought and sold accordingly, has no citizen rights (keine Bürgerrechte) whatsoever, and whose labour and also whose life often is subject to the owner’s volition; who is legally obliged by prior contract (oral or written) to work for another, with contractually limited rights to bargain; who is forced against his/her will to peform, for another person or other persons, acts or services on a regular or continuing basis. Should he flee or try to escape, he risks a severe punishment, or even death.

A freeman, on the other hand, is a full citizen (Vollbürger), legally recognized as a member of a state (Staatsbürger), with civil rights (Bürgerrechte) to exercise his own volition in choosing his profession, occupation, labour, employer, political or religious leader, lifestyle, religion, etc. This includes fundamental freedoms and privileges, and legal, social and economic rights. He is thus not dependent on a master for his life, nor does he live depending on another’s choice without using his own discretion. An example for his economic freedom, at the least, can be gathered from the Suttanipāta Commentary where a man called Dhaniyo expressed his freemanship (bhujissa-bhāva) thus: “I am self-reliant on my earnings and maintenance” (atta-vetana-bhato hamasmi).

Now, in the Pāḷi texts the very antithesis between a slave (dāso) and a freeman (bhujisso) is described thus:

Quote
72. ‘Just as a man might be a slave (dāso), not self-dependent, not his own master (an’attādhīno), dependent on another (parādhīno), unable to go where he liked (na yenakāmaṅgamo), and after some time he might be freed from slavery (dāsabyā mucceyya), be self-dependent (attādhīno), be not dependent on another (aparādhīno), be a freeman (bhujisso) and able to go where he liked (yenakāmaṅgamo), might think: “Before this I was a slave (dāso), ... now ... I am a freeman (bhujisso) ...” And he would rejoice and be glad about that.’

(e.g. DN Sāmaññaphala Sutta)

A similar antithesis is described between slavery (dāsabyaŋ) and freemanship (bhujissaŋ):
Quote
74. ‘As long, as a bhikkhu does not perceive the disappearance of the five hindrances in himself, he feels as if in debt (iṇa), in sickness (roga), in jail (bandhan’āgāra), in slavery (dāsabyaŋ), and on a long desert route (kantār’addhāna-magga). But when he perceives the disappearance of the five
hindrances in himself, it is as if he were free of debt (āṇaṇya), in good health (ārogya), in freedom from jail (bandhanāmokkha), in freemanship (bhujissaŋ), and on a safe ground (khemanta-bhūmi).

ibid.

It is worth noting here that a candidate for higher ordination should also be debtless (aṇaṇo), healthy in respect to serious sicknesses or afflictions (roga or ābādha, such as leprosy, boils, epilepsy, etc.), not condemned in jail or prison (kārā in Vin i. 75), and not be a slave (dāso) but a freeman (bhujissa). Moreover, in Vin i. 76, 77 the prohibitions of ordaining a candidate in debt (iṇāyiko) and a slave (dāso) occur together, one after the other, i.e. § 96, “Na, bhikkhave, iṇāyiko pabbājetabbo”, and § 97, “Na, bhikkhave, dāso pabbājetabbo.” Similarly, the allowance of ordaining a candidate who is a freeman (bhujisso) and free of debt (aṇaṇo) occur together in the questionnaire of the higher ordination when teachers ask: “Are you a freeman? (bhujisso’si?); are you free of debt (aṇaṇo’si?) Thus, all these correlations shows that bhujisso means the opposite of a slave (dāso), and has nothing to do with given up citizenship.

In regard to a slave, the Vinaya Commentary on Vin i. 77, § 97 says that if he is freed from slavery in line with the country’s customs and law, he may go forth or ordain. It explicitly employs the synonyms, “Adāsaŋ katvā ... bhujisse katvā pabbājetuŋ vaññati” (After making him non-slave ...after making him freeman it is fitting to ordain him).

Therefore, a slave (dāsa) has to become a freeman (bhujissa), a regular, free and full citizen (Vollbürger) before getting ordained. It is not the other way round you say that a freeman (bhujissa) has to “give up citizenship and leave the rights as well as the duties in regard of the Nation behind”.

Two other noteworthy points to be mentioned are:

1. The similarity between a slave and a government servant (rājabhaṭa) and their difference to a freeman

Just as there is the prohibition in Vinaya not to ordain a slave, so there is a prohibition not to ordain a government servant, such a soldier, police officer, or other uniformed professional. The latter is called rājabhaṭa in Pāḷi, which literally means “hired (bhaṭa) by the king, ruler or government (rāja)”, and he is thus bound to government or military services, not free to desert or flee at will. Should he desert, he can be severely punished or even killed. Thus, he is basically the property of the ruler, is owned by him, and his labour and also life often is subject to the ruler's volition. In a sense, he is a part-time paid slave, who for convenience is called “servant”, as long as in service. He should thus not be ordained, for it is said, “Na, bhikkhave, rājabhaṭo pabbājetabbo. Yo pabbājeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassā’ti.” (Vin i.74).

Now, in order to get ordained, he needs to be free from government service by getting official permission to relinquish his duties, and thus become a civilian, a free and full citizen (Vollbürger), or in a sense a freeman (bhujissa). Therefore both, a slave (dāsa) and a rājabhaṭa, have to become regular citizens and free civilians before getting ordained, and not the other way round that they have to “give up citizenship and leave the rights as well as the duties in regard of the Nation behind”.

2. Disqualifications and Invalid Ordinations

The other noteworthy point is about disqualifications, i.e. the factors that would bar an applicant from receiving ordination—either the going-forth (pabbajjā) or the higher ordination (upasampadā)—or make the ordination invalid if already received. These fall into three categories:

  • absolute disqualification baring him for life — even if the applicant receives ordination, the ordination is invalid and he does not count as ordained; and the bhikkhus who ordain him incur a dukkaṭa offence.
  • disqualification as an undesirable member of the Community — if he happens to be ordained, he counts as ordained, but the bhikkhus participating in the ordination incur a dukkaṭa; and
  • disqualification as being formally unprepared for higher ordination (for instance, he lacks robes and an alms-bowl)—usually classified as the same class as the undesirable, above.

These categories are to be understood as follows:

  • absolute disqualification—In Vinaya there are all-in-all thirteen persons who are absolutely disqualified (abhabba-puggalā), and even they receive ordination, it is totally invalid, they should be disrobed and expelled (nāsetabba), and the bhikkhus who ordain them incur a dukkaṭa offence.
    The thirteen persons are:
    • paṇḍako (a eunuch),
    • theyyasaŋvāsako (one taken affiliation by theft, i.e. putting on robes without the authorization of the Sangha, and/or claiming rights of samanerahood or bhikkhuhood, such as seniority, etc. without an ordination according to the Vinaya standards),
    • titthiyapakkantako (one gone over to another religion while still a bhikkhu),
    • tiracchānagato (an animal),
    • mātughātako (a matricide),
    • pitughātako (a patricide),
    • arahantaghātako (a killer of an arahant),
    • bhikkhunidūsako (a molester of a bhikkhunī),
    • saṅghabhedako (one successfully creating a schism in the Sangha),
    • lohituppādako (one maliciously injuring the Tathāgata to the point of drawing blood), and
    • ubhatobyañjanako (a hermaphrodite). — (Vin. i. 86)
    • pārājiko (one who committed a parājika offence while previously a bhikkhu and becomes thus asaŋvāso (no longer in communion)) —( Vin. iii. 23, Pārājika), and
    • 13. ūnavīsativasso puggalo (a person of less than twenty years of age in the case of higher ordination). —(Vin. iv. 130, Pācittiya 65)
  • disqualification as an undesirable member —An applicant, such as a slave (dāsa), a government servant (rājabhaṭa), a person in debt (iṇāyika), etc. should not be given the Going-forth (na pabbājetabbo). As Going-forth is the customary first step in higher ordination, this means that they should not receive higher ordination, either. Any bhikkhu who gives any of these applicants the Going-forth incurs a dukkaṭa (yo pabbājeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassa). However, since these applicants do not have the absolute disqualification as a paṇḍaka, theyyasaŋvāsaka, etc. and since this prohibition does not include the clause “should be disrobed or expelled” (nāsetabbā), they do count as having properly gone forth if they get ordained. And if they receive the higher ordination, it is valid and they should not be expelled (na nāsetabbā). The bhikkhus who ordain them, however, incur a dukkaṭa offence. Hence scrupulous bhikkhus do not ordain them without making sure that they are freemen (bhujissa), not government servants (rājabhaṭa), not debtors (iṇāyika), etc. To do so especially nowadays, legal documents, such as certificates, identity cards, passports, andso on, which officially verify their civil status, etc. are necessary.
  • disqualification as being formally unprepared —As explained above, this category is usually classified under the second one and refers to applicants without an alms bowl or a full set of robes, with a borrowed alms bowl or a borrowed set of robes, and without a proper preceptor. Anyone who participates in ordaining them incurs a dukkaṭa. However, if they happen to receive ordination, their ordination is valid.
    (Please see also Ven. Thaṇissaro’s Buddhist Monastic Code II, CHAPTER 14 : Ordination , 2007–2011)

Here now, none of these categories mentions anything about ordinations becoming actually invalid by not giving up citizenship and leaving the rights as well as the duties in regard of the Nation behind, as you publicly state, and that the Sangha will be extinct within this very generation because of such “invalid ordinations”. Such statements are utterly untenable in Vinaya terms and look over exaggerated.

Regarding the Sutta-piṭaka, there is the Pahārāda Sutta in Aïguttara Nikāya that refers to members of the four main classes (vaṇṇas) of Indian society who, after going forth in the Tathāgata's Dhamma Vinaya, `give up their former names and clans' (jahanti purimāni nāma-gottāni), and are simply designated as “ascetics following the Sakyan son” (“samaṇā sakyaputtiyā” tveva saṅkhaṃ gacchanti); that is, they follow the Buddha, they are designated as Buddhists. But even here there is no mention about giving up citizenship and leaving the rights as well as the duties in regard of the Nation behind, but only about being called Buddha’s followers. Besides, it is probably due to the Pahārāda Sutta and other places in the canon which repeat the same passage, that there is the tradition in Buddhist communities to change one’s lay name after going forth and adopt a Buddhist or Pāḷi name (Buddharakkhita, Dhammarakkhita, etc.) as a designation that one is no more a layman, a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. But again, this is done as an outward religious designation and has nothing to do about giving up citizenship, and the rest.

As I will not have time to further discuss this or other topic, I hope that you will investigate the Pāḷi texts, reconsider your position and come to a reasonable conclusion.

With Mettā and best wishes in Dhamma Vinaya,

Ñāṇadassana.
The rest seems all be founded on the interbetration that a Buerge is free and of depts, and if, like people often know their right but not their buergerplichten, at the duties of even buddhist countries, so you may find that it is good so that one even has duties that will break basic precepts.

Of course it would be a transgression to sugges somebody to give up, so nowone should understand that a monk told you to do!

As for Ven. Bhantes kind, care and great information, simply Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu. Its more a urgency for those how might have ways to keep the Sangha going on, as there could be Elders yet not ordinated unter wrong view an without leaving home and house.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 06:56:06 PM by Johann »
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The confusion (that a "slave" or Bürge is something more free than a bound person, with rights there are duties) seems to be historical trace able, when we look at the word "vogelfrei" which is actually a synonym for being really free outwardly.

Ursprünglich bedeutete das Wort „vogelfrei“ lediglich „frei wie ein Vogel, ungebunden“. So wird das Wort in den älteren Quellen verwendet.[1] Auch Luther und Zwingli verwendeten das Wort noch in seiner ursprünglichen Bedeutung.

Viel später kam es zu der Verknüpfung mit der Ächtung. Sie ergab sich aus den Formeln:

„als du mit urteil u. recht zu der mordacht erteilt worden bist, also nim ich dein leib u. gut aus dem fride und thu sie in den unfrid und künde dich erlös u. rechtlos und künde dich den vögeln frei in den lüften und den tieren in dem wald und den vischen in dem waßer und solt auf keiner straßen noch in keiner mundtat, die keiser oder künig gefreiet haben, nindert fride noch geleit haben; …“

– Artikel 241 der Bamberger Halsgerichtsordnung, zitiert nach Jacob Grimm, Bd. I, S. 58.
und

„Frei soll er sein, wie die Tiere im Wald, die Vögel und die Fische,[2] den vischen im waßer, so daß niemand gegen ihn einen frevel begehen kann, dessen er büßen dürfe“

– Wigand, Das femgericht Westphalens. Hamm 1825. S. 436 zitiert bei Grimm S. 59.

This come together with the creation, on idea, of citizenship and laws in the 19. Century, akku...
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One who has not laid down all trades, contracts, dependencies and refuge with what ever society or community in the world, one has not gone for Refuge into the Gems, not gone forth under and only under the Sublime Gems, who ever makes use of rights and services dedicated not for the Gems explicit, such a person has neither reached the level of Pabbajito nor could be rightly, without fault, be even a member of the Bhikkhu Sangha.

One who relays on what ever common creativity, relays on what ever General Public, one who uses off heritage of others, or both, one who's firm refuge is impure and not complete, might be called a monk, Samanera, Samana, Bhikkhu, in regard of conventions in common societies, but in regard of Vinaya, and as a support of the Path, hasn't left home, and can be understood "just" as trainee, like a calf, even if already big, running around part-timely, has started to seek food itself, up and on, has not abound, is still strong attached and return to the mothers udder.

It's improper, not honest, and open to all kind of bad, if one bears the name of "beggar" "one who has left home" "one who fears, sees the dangers (of dependency) in the world", yet lifes in trade, in terms of services, and what ever objectivity in the world and their societies, even it would be that of common Brahmas, in this Dhamma-Vinaya. Yet the last, one who abounds the house-life, abstains from trading and give into sensual pleasures, may it be for the sake of gaining merits and better future stands, or for the sake of heavens, can still expect to gain the first Samaññaphala , The Fruits of the Contemplative Life. Yet it's because Path and Fruits beyond the first can be gained, that the wise of this Dhamma-Vinaya's heritage, did, would, will, praise the going forth, renouncing and eclusively living on alms given for that, in faith of that, or knowing that giving toward such Samanas and Brahmas, excels all other sacrifices of common intent.

May many be able to trace the last in this Dhamma-Vinaya heritage, and possible not only serve their own liberation by it, but keep the antique path, into the antique Nāgarā open, for many who might once come upon the surface, so that it can be seen, traced and followed, safeguarded by the Nagas, Yakkhas, Garudas, Devas and Brahmas.

Yet, it should be not overseen, not at all disregarded, or belittled, that many just served to keep an outwardly tradition alive, sometimes without much understanding, serve, or will serve, steady bearing in mind "oh, may those who are more advanced in terms of Noble Qualities, good monks, come and teach us what not seen, known yet". It's because of this, being nevertheless young relatives, Putta, that aside of the eight Persons, worthy of gift, off-springs are the ninth field of merits, worthy for sacrifice, yet no more, if they had abond the seek for staying in relation of the first eight and abound to work for higher that objectives in the world, if having become just message runner for worldly purposes and this or that gains, fames, wins: just common Bürge in sociaties not recognizing Sublime, Heavens and beyond, "marxist Atheists", salves of desires in the material world.
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And no, it's not something one has such as a right to, can't be administrated by "Algorithms", or is an universal "human right", but is like all a individual matter on Nissaya, conditions, adopted paramis at even this very time, requires the fullfillment of the six paramis , right when going forth. Going forth means "the paramis complete", at least the first and second and third, and strive with faith for the other three to be complete where not complete yet.

It's therfore that "dwelling on proper places " is the fourth great blessing, conditioned by the three first.

Once the globe is total taken over by ideologies and the wrong view of "western Brahmans" and "Atheist Marxism", "democrazy" reigns and rules and leader and ruler are gone (since becoming such is caused by huge merits, and no more done, how could certain "casts" still exist), not even Paccecabuddhas will be met, but disappear silently.

"Peace" by wealth... till all had been eaten, brought off, what ever heritage (old merits).
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I just woke up remembering Upasaka {removed name} had written here something, which I think was quite reasonable.
From the point of view of someone who would like to go forth but sees the matters discussed here as hindrances, what should he do, knowing that if he follows certain examples he would go against worldly law, could get into trouble?
He would simply have to follow the more conventional ways, requiring certain legal assistance to follow the normal bureaucratic ways, which are of course also never for sure, subject to change, potentially subject to corruption, maybe sometimes impossible to follow in straightforward ways with clear conscience, where it can seem sometimes normal and expected to just pay certain "bribes" to get the paperwork done.
Then to live as a monk, not handling money and such things, it seems reasonable to give these into the hands of caring laypeople, if having such fortune, and being able to say then: "I have abandoned these things. These matters are not in my hands anymore, and I will not concern myself with them if not prompted, asked for, demanded by others." That is then part of one's refuge, having relinquished these legal belongings, and all associated worries around.
But probably unlikely that this would go smooth and without worries for most cases. It requires certain contacts and trusted support to handle such in the first place. Or simply trust, confidence, conviction that having done one's best effort until here is enough to not require further involvement.

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Aren't there million, who yet not out of Noble Reason, gone into homelessness? And aren't there such, for example, religious refugees?

If that way would be laid out by common legal certainty, or the homeless life, the Noble status, obtained by certificates by other then what's just Dhamma, would it be then neither a relay on home? Isn't it reasonable fearfully if harmless beggars would carry rights and relay on worldly authorities?

Whould it, for a Noble beggar, proper to request stay? If nations and Kings do no more welcome and support Arahats and those wishing to follow them, then, naturally this tradition extinguishes.

When one wanders, it's never sure where to arrive, rest. It's never sure whether welcome or even beaten away, never sure if invited to rest, or even to stay, and even such as monasteries welcoming those gone forth are rare.

One might also be clear that it would be improper, althought there are todays monks who even run administrative issues, that monks "help slaves to escape".

Seeing this matter, Atma even often reached out for the benefit of Noble Ones, in this matter, or at least hinted "it would be good to make aware".

My person is still convinced that one with a pure heart will just meet Devas opening the doors and support form devoted in lands of wonders, yet fools with wrong view (thinking in terms of rights) could easily close up all for many.

Aside of teaching right views, right resolve, right conduct till right livelihood, my person wouldn't be able to support much aside of requisites he took care of for the Sangha and introduce, if seeing one is willing to give up what ever else relay.

My person could not easy imagine many western/modern people worthy of risking the honor of the Gems and has gained much understanding why those in charge are very careful in regard of excepting.

At least, one should not forget that the ways of putting Cuckoo eggs into other nests are common ways in the east, which additionally makes it risky if not either family or really given up old families or even all.

As for Nyom {removed name}1 , given his past doings and ways of thinking, my person thinks it would be hardly possible to let such out into the wild before not good tamed in strong "prison".

At least, especially modern/western, have not put any effort into doing merits, build up relations, but for most often nurished from what's not really given, often even raised by "enemies" and people expelled for the tradition.

Not that the patient isn't unimaginable, or that ways could not open once one has changed his ways, but there is certain grave kamma, and that danger is broadly underestimated, that would simply close doors. Yet the whole western/moder public "buddhist sceen" has pretty closed the doors, often to an extent that bowls are turned over.

And it's broadly a western/modern undertaking to go for culture thief, which more and more infiltrates also into the traditional countries and it's reasonable understand-able that such will, if not already that far, lead to very strict closing and just leaving it open for the sake of "spiritual tourism", meaning let them pay, as they don't understand the old cultur of giving first and without demand.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline អរិយវង្ស

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កូណាមិនបានអានច្រើន ឬចប់
តែកូណាមានគំនិតថា អ្នកបួសពិតប្រាកដ
មិនរស់នៅក្រោមច្បាប់ ជាអ្នកសេរីភាពលើអ្វី
ដែលមនុស្សធម្មតាធ្វើ។ អ្នកបួសគោរព ធម៌វិន័យ។
Ex: ដូចជាស្តេច... មិនចាំបាច់មានប័ណ្ណបើកបរ
តែអាចបើកបានលើផ្លូវដែលមានសុត្ថិភាព។
ស្តេចប្រើច្បាប់របស់ស្តេច...

Offline Dhammañāṇa

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  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
It has it's rules to give going forth, by the heirs of this Sasana, but isn't directly related to rules or demands of other societies to let such go on. This is a matter of individual highest Mangala, and a matter whether heirs are perceived, met, or not. Yet going forth generally, can be as well not considered unrighteous at all, even if "western Brahmans", modern people, disregard it, find it annoying, fearing such.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Verbeugung vor ihm, dem Erhabenen, Würdigen,
völlig aus sich selbst Erleuchteten.[235] (3x)

"Namo tassa Bhagavato, Arahato,
sammā Sambuddhassa.
(3x)

1. Mit Verlaub, Ehrwürdiger Herr, bitte ich um das Fortziehen. Zum zweiten Male, Ehrwürdiger Herr, ... Zum dritten Male, Ehrwürdiger Herr, bitte ich um das Fortziehen.    

1. Okāsa, ahaŋ, bhante, pabbajjaŋ yācāmi. Dutiyampi, ahaŋ, bhante, pabbajjaŋ yācāmi. Tatiyampi, ahaŋ, bhante, pabbajjaŋ yācāmi.

2. Ehrwürdiger Herr! Bitte nehmen Sie dieses Gewand [236] entgegen und lassen Sie mich, aus Mitleid bewogen, zur Überwindung allen Leidens und zur Verwirklichung des Nibbānas, aus [dem Hausleben in die Hauslosigkeit] ziehen.

2. Sabba-dukkha-nissaraṇa-nibbāna-sacchikaraṇatthāya imaŋ kāsāvaŋ gahetvā pabbājetha maŋ, bhante, anukampaŋ upādāya.

Zum zweiten Male, Ehrwürdiger Herr! ... ziehen.
Zum dritten Male, ... ziehen."    

Dutiyampi, sabba-dukkha ... upādāya.
Tatiyampi, sabba-dukkha ... upādāya."
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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