Posted by: Danilo
« on: March 16, 2020, 07:50:48 AM »Does this satisfy Nyom or would he need some samples to get it more understood (which of course have most impact if live and not just stories).
Concerning the Kappiya-vohāra, It did.
Another day, another possibility. We don't know what tomorrow might be. _()_
Ein neuer Tag, wieder eine Möglichkeit. Wir wissen nicht was morgen sein wird. _()_
ថ្ងៃ ថ្មី មួូយ ជា ឳកាស ថ្មី មួយ ទៀត។ យើង មិន អាច ដឹង មុន នូវ អ្វី ដែល នឹង កើតឡើង ថ្ងៃ ស្អែក
"Dhammo have rakkhati dammacāriṁ"
"N'atthi santi param sukham"
Does this satisfy Nyom or would he need some samples to get it more understood (which of course have most impact if live and not just stories).
The rule often leads to strange ideas like that lay-people are suggested by monks to clear the soil in monasteries or that they use Samanera to do such. Such is indeed a fault.
a proper expression, i.e., a way of expressing a hint or desire allowable in the context of a rule where an outright command would be a breach of the rule.
The most he is allowed to do when receiving a check is to hand it over to his steward—being careful not to say anything that would violate the etiquette of kappiya vohāra (“wording things right”)
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
"Or he might say: 'Whereas some honorable recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, continuously cause damage to seed and plant life — to plants propagated from roots, stems, joints, buddings, and seeds — the recluse Gotama abstains from damaging seed and plant life.'
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
Therefore destroying a living plant — for instance, felling a tree, uprooting a flower, burning grass — is a Confession offence; as is picking fruit from a tree, a flower from a bush, etc. It is an offence of wrong-doing (dukka.ta) to damage or destroy fertile seeds or pips, or viable seedlings. (See Kappiya).
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
(Mv.I.62.1) [126] Now on that occasion there was a certain delicately nurtured son of an old (wealthy) family that had fallen on hard times. The thought occurred to him,
“I am delicately nurtured, incapable of acquiring unacquired property, or of making anything out of the property I have acquired.[2]
“By what strategy could I live pleasantly and not be put to difficulties?”
Then the thought occurred to him, “Now, these Sakyan-son monks are of pleasant virtue and conduct. Having eaten good meals, they lie down in beds sheltered from the wind.
“What if I were to prepare robes and a bowl for myself, shave my head & beard, to clothe myself in ochre robes, and then having gone to the monastery, live in affiliation with the monks?”
(Mv.I.62.2) So he prepared robes and a bowl for himself, shaved his head & beard, clothed himself in ochre robes, went to the monastery, and bowed down to the monks.
The monks said, “Friend, how many rains do you have?”
“Friends, what’s that — ‘how many rains’?”
“Then who is your preceptor, friend?”
“Friends, what’s that — a ‘preceptor’?”
The monks said to Ven. Upāli, “Come, friend Upāli, and question this one gone-forth.”
(Mv.I.62.3) So the delicately nurtured son of an old (wealthy) family that had fallen on hard times, being questioned by Ven. Upāli, reported the matter to him.
Ven, Upāli reported the matter to the monks.
The monks reported the matter to the Blessed One.
“A person in affiliation through theft, if unaccepted, is not to be given Acceptance. If accepted, he is to be expelled.
“One who has gone over (while a monk) to another religion, if unaccepted, is not to be given Acceptance. If accepted, he is to be expelled.”
Becoming homeless, leaving home, how ever, isn't a monopoly and it might be that someone isn't any more able to live a householder life, yet does not find a Sangha, a Bhikkhu. Shave ones head, taking on robes, searching for ones "kind", ones teacher, if one can stand it without making use of the Sanghas social network: there is no reason for critique
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
Migajala Sutta: To Migajala
At Savatthi. Then Ven. Migajala went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A person living alone. A person living alone,' thus it is said. To what extent, lord, is one a person living alone, and to what extent is one a person living with a companion?"
"Migajala, there are forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing — and a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them. As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, delight arises. There being delight, he is impassioned. Being impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the fetter of delight is said to be a person living with a companion.
"There are sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body... ideas cognizable via the intellect — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing — and a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them. As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, delight arises. There being delight, he is impassioned. Being impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the fetter of delight is said to be a person living with a companion.
"A person living in this way — even if he frequents isolated forest & wilderness dwellings, with an unpopulated atmosphere, lying far from humanity, appropriate for seclusion — is still said to be living with a companion. Why is that? Because craving is his companion, and it has not been abandoned by him. Thus he is said to be a person living with a companion.
"Now, there are forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing — and a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being no delight, he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is not fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of delight is said to be a person living alone.
"There are sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body... ideas cognizable via the intellect — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing — and a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being no delight, he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is not fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of delight is said to be a person living alone.
"A person living in this way — even if he lives near a village, associating with monks & nuns, with male & female lay followers, with kings & royal ministers, with sectarians & their disciples — is still said to be living alone. A person living alone is said to be a monk. Why is that? Because craving is his companion, and it has been abandoned by him. Thus he is said to be a person living alone."
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
4. Bahukārasuttaṃ
Has done much
24. "Bhikkhus, these three persons have done much to a person. Which three? Bhikkhus, the person gone to whom this person takes refuge in the Enlightenment, in the Teaching and the Community of bhikkhus.
"Bhikkhus, the person gone to whom this person knows as it really is, this is unpleasant, this is the arising of unpleasantness, this is the cessation of unpleasantness and this is the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness.
"Again, bhikkhus, the person gone to whom, this person destroys desires, releases the mind and released through wisdom, here and now abides having realized. Bhikkhus, these three persons have done much to this person.
"Bhikkhus, it is not possible that these three persons could be thoroughly repaid with gratitude, by this person revering him, attending on him, clasping hands towards him and honouring him with robes, morsel food, dwellings and medicinal requisites."
Does Nyom Danilo have any question till here?
who's involved: first of all, you, with the right aspiration and perception and as for ordaining as Samanera a valid preceptor, as for ordaining as Bhikkhu, a chosen valid Nissaya (mentor/personal teacher), a valid preceptor, a valid Sangha of six valid Bhikkhus, and a valid place (Uposatha-place, within valid Sema/borders), and a valid Ordination - action.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
(Mv.I.53.4) Then the Blessed One, having stayed at Dakkhiṇāgiri for as long as he liked, came back to Rājagaha. He addressed Ven. Ānanda: “Why did the Tathāgata set out on a walking tour toward Dakkhiṇāgiri with a small group of monks?”
Then Ven. Ānanda reported the matter to the Blessed One. Then the Blessed One, having given a Dhamma talk with regard to this cause, to this incident, addressed the monks:
“Monks, I allow an experienced, competent monk to live five years in dependence, and an inexperienced one all his life.”
(Mv.I.53.5) [116] “Endowed with five qualities, a monk should not live independently (of a preceptor or teacher).[1]
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training.
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training.
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training.
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of release of one beyond training.
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of knowledge and vision of release of one beyond training.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He is endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training.
“He is endowed with the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training.
“He is endowed with the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training.
“He is endowed with the aggregate of release of one beyond training.
“He is endowed with the aggregate of knowledge and vision of release of one beyond training.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.
(Mv.I.53.6) “Endowed with five further qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“He is without conviction, without a sense of shame, without compunction, lazy, and of muddled mindfulness.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He has conviction, a sense of shame, compunction, his persistence is aroused, and his mindfulness established.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.
(Mv.I.53.7) “Endowed with five further qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“He is one who, in terms of heightened virtue, is defective in his virtue. He is one who, in terms of heightened conduct, is defective in his conduct. He is one who, in terms of higher views, is defective in his views. He is not learned. He is undiscerning.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He is one who, in terms of heightened virtue, is not defective in his virtue. He is one who, in terms of heightened conduct, is not defective in his conduct. He is one who, in terms of higher views, is not defective in his views. He is learned. He is discerning.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.
(Mv.I.53.8 ) “Endowed with five further qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“He does not know what is an offense. He does not know what is not an offense. He does not know what is a light offense. He does not know what is a heavy offense. Both Pāṭimokkhas, in detail, have not been properly handed down to him, have not been properly explicated, have not been properly ‘revolved’ (in terms of the ‘wheels’), have not been properly judged, clause by clause, letter by letter.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He knows what is an offense.He knows what is not an offense. He knows what is a light offense.He knows what is a heavy offense. Both Pāṭimokkhas, in detail, have been properly handed down to him, properly explicated, properly ‘revolved,’ properly judged, clause by clause, letter by letter.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.
(Mv.I.53.9) “Endowed with five further qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“He does not know what is an offense. He does not know what is not an offense. He does not know what is a light offense. He does not know what is a heavy offense. He has fewer than five rains.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He knows what is an offense. He knows what is not an offense. He knows what is a light offense. He knows what is a heavy offense. He has five rains or more.
“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.”
(Mv.I.53.10) [117] “Endowed with six qualities, a monk should not live independently (of a preceptor or teacher).
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training.
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training.
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training.
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of release of one beyond training.
“He is not endowed with the aggregate of knowledge and vision of release of one beyond training.
“He has fewer than five rains.
“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with six qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He is endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training. He is endowed with the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training. He is endowed with the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training. He is endowed with the aggregate of release of one beyond training. He is endowed with the aggregate of knowledge and vision of release of one beyond training. He has five rains or more.
“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk may live independently.
(Mv.I.53.11) “Endowed with six further qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“He is without conviction, without a sense of shame, without compunction, lazy, and of muddled mindfulness. He has fewer than five rains.
“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with six qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He has conviction, a sense of shame, compunction, his persistence is aroused, and his mindfulness established. He has five rains or more.
“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk may live independently.
(Mv.I.53.12) “Endowed with six further qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“He is one who, in terms of heightened virtue, is defective in his virtue. He is one who, in terms of heightened conduct, is defective in his conduct. He is one who, in terms of higher views, is defective in his views. He is not learned. He is undiscerning. He has fewer than five rains.
“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with six qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He is one who, in terms of heightened virtue, is not defective in his virtue. He is one who, in terms of heightened conduct, is not defective in his conduct. He is one who, in terms of higher views, is not defective in his views. He is learned. He is discerning. He has five rains or more.
“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk may live independently.
(Mv.I.53.13) “Endowed with six further qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“He does not know what is an offense. He does not know what is not an offense. He does not know what is a light offense. He does not know what is a heavy offense. Both Pāṭimokkhas, in detail, have not been properly handed down to him, have not been properly explicated, have not been properly ‘revolved’ (in terms of the ‘wheels’), have not been properly judged, clause by clause, letter by letter. He has fewer than five rains.
“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk should not live independently.
“Endowed with six qualities, a monk may live independently.
“He knows what is an offense. He knows what is not an offense. He knows what is a light offense. He knows what is a heavy offense. Both Pāṭimokkhas, in detail, have been properly handed down to him, properly explicated, properly ‘revolved,’ properly judged, clause by clause, letter by letter. He has five rains or more.
“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk may live independently.
Temporary exemption from dependence. Normally a junior bhikkhu is required to live in dependence under a mentor at all times. However, Mv.I.73 allows him not to take dependence when living in any of the following situations if no qualified bhikkhu is available as a mentor:
1. He is on a journey.
2. He is ill.
3. He is caring for an ill person who has requested his help (§).
4. He is living alone in the wilderness, meditating comfortably, intending to take dependence if a qualified mentor comes along.
The Commentary, in discussing these allowances, makes the following points:
A bhikkhu on a journey is said to have no mentor available if no qualified senior bhikkhu is traveling with him. In other words, the fact that he happens to pass by a monastery containing a qualified mentor does not mean that a mentor is available, and he is allowed to continue traveling without taking dependence. If, however, he spends the night in a place where he has taken dependence before, he should take dependence on the day of his arrival. If he reaches a place where he has never been before and plans to spend only two or three days, he need not take dependence; but if he plans to spend a week, he must. If the senior bhikkhu he requests dependence from says, "What's the use of taking dependence for only a week?" that exempts him from this requirement.
As for the bhikkhu living alone in the wilderness, the Commentary says that "meditating comfortably" means that his tranquility and insight meditation are going smoothly. For some reason, though, it says that this allowance applies only to bhikkhus whose meditation is at a tender stage and might deteriorate if they were to leave the wilderness; if a bhikkhu has attained any of the noble attainments — beginning with stream-entry — he may not make use of this allowance. Why the Commentary limits the allowance in this way, it doesn't say.
At any rate, once the month before the Rains-residence (vassa) arrives and no suitable mentor appears, the junior bhikkhu must leave his wilderness abode and look for a place with a suitable mentor under whom he can take dependence for the Rains.
* Johann : Sadhu for the questions. It's because asking (those knowing) that one gains understanding. Atma, Nyom Danilo , does not really know whether he just likes to leave it as open question for everyone to be taken on, or if he likes to address a certain person, group,... If wishing to adress someone, good to approach direct and ask him/them.(Just to inform, Bhante Khemakumara has not taken/be given full ordination and isn't an accepted Bhikkhu within the Sangha, but trains "just" as Pabbajito (homeless under the gems, "Samanera")
Atma thinks that the questin is also of much practical interest for Nyom Ebo ( saddhamma ) here.