Forum > Admirable friend - [Großartiger Freund] kalyanamittata

Association with pets - Associated rebith?

(1/6) > >>

Aramika   Dieses neue Thema (bzw. diese/r Beitrag/e) wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in [DD][Forum] - Discussions on Theravada , hinzugefügt. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!The new topic (or post/s) here are originaly from [DD][Forum] - Discussions on Theravada . For eventual additionally information: please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!
[Original post:]

--- Quote from: Johann on March 25, 2018, 11:21:31 PM ---It's had to take, but my person can not abstain to make clear if someone gives into pets, such existence can be expected. Like monasteries here, one time a monk being served by devoted woman, one time a woman devoted to serve monks (out improper of attachments), onetime the "relaxed" dog, waiting for his share, or cat. That's the whell of certain upanissaya. Not that such pets have a real bad live, even living on alms, but it's hard for them to find possibilities to mak merits to gain better circumstances.

--- End quote ---

Bhante, when you wrote "such existence can be expected" you mean a literal rebirth as a animal? if it is the case, I have never read or heard anything about this. Is there a sutta where the Buddha declare such a think? As far as I know whenever the Buddha point out the causes for rebirth in lower realms, it was usually only a matter of ethical transgression. Except in a situation in which someone was imitanting a dog and he said to that person that he could be reborn as a dog (or something like that, I don't remember the sutta). But this situation is totally different from have a pet.

Sadhu for pointing on matter, possible unclear, Nyom Danilo .

My person has to say that he never researched in detail to quickly answer this topic without counting lot of indicators.

The Sutta Danilo remembers, is found in MN, where the Buddha explained about his done kinds of practices, speaking with two wanderer, used to train dog-ascetic and ox-asctetic.

The Dog-duty Ascetic

Before going deeper, it's probable good to investigate why such association with animals is seeked, often prefered, the kind of way and virtues of pets and the meaning of lower realm and common animal, given that not many animals gain a "wonderful" live as pet.

The life as pet and common males, not sure if knowing, is very different.

What does one inclined to prefer give into pets, aside of often very close relation (Upanissaya to each other)?

What are the virtues of a pet, or how to they seem to be?

How far is a pets life great and how far miserable?

How would a human life and way be similar to a pets life?

The en-gendered working animal of fiedls of others:

--- --- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
"Here, Seniya, someone develops the ox duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the ox habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the ox mind fully and unstintingly, he develops the ox behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of oxen. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious like I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Seniya, if his ox duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of oxen; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."
--- End quote ---
Quote from:
The often also en-gendered enjoyer of pleasure and giver of pleasure without much work to do:

--- --- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."
--- End quote ---
Quote from:
Pets life together with human in villages, seek each other, are bound to each other, and there are animals used for gross and for fine enjoyments, enjoying gross and fine benefits in rrward or advanced, not easy to be separated, leave each other, even if beaten every day. Bound to their owner they live, bound to their beneficer they invest.

"When imitating ways, when inclined to certain ways of lifelihood, he reapears in the union of pets... but if even have wrong view... he reapears in an animal womb..."

So it seems here as if animal and ox or dog, in distinction, is something different. As put into before. In how far?

Let's look also again on the aspects of wrong view:

--- --- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
--- End quote ---
Quote from:
And to understand the simile in regard of consuming or giving Dhamma in a pets relation on many places, maybe a citation of Ajahn Fuang:

--- --- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
"Monks [lay people] who eat the food that other people donate [consume Dhamma], but then don't practice, can expect to be reborn as water buffaloes [monastery/Buddhism-slaves] next time around, to till the fields and work off their debts."
--- End quote ---
Quote from:
(Maybe worthy to quote in the "twofould escape from Dhamma-trade " and gratitude topic on DW, Nyom Binocular and to think also about the many kulchose, especially on internet, Nyom Danilo)

Aslo good to consider, are the "lit." reasons of birth as animal

--- Quote from: ---· Ten unwholesome actions (MN 41)

· Lack of virtue, holding to wrong views. If one is generous to monks and nuns, however, one may be reborn as an "ornamented" animal (i.e., a bird with bright plumage; a horse with attractive markings, etc.; AN 10.177).

· Behaving like an animal (MN 57)

--- End quote ---

In regard of giving into "may my ancestor, my kind, benefit from it" sacrifices:

--- --- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
Then Janussonin the brahman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, you know that we brahmans give gifts, make offerings, [saying,] 'May this gift accrue to our dead relatives. May our dead relatives partake of this gift.' Now, Master Gotama, does that gift accrue to our dead relatives? Do our dead relatives partake of that gift?"

"In possible places, brahman, it accrues to them, but not in impossible places."

"And which, Master Gotama, are the possible places? Which are the impossible places?"

"Then there is the case where a certain person takes life, takes what is not given, engages in sensual misconduct, engages in false speech, engages in divisive speech, engages in abusive speech, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, bears ill will, and has wrong views. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the animal womb. He lives there, he remains there, by means of whatever is the food of common animals. This, too, is an impossible place for that gift to accrue to one staying there.

--- End quote ---
Quote from:
"... and has right view/wrong view" (seems to be) the main distinction: e.g. believe in those with goodness, ther are giver and gifts, kamma, rebirth, devas: e.g. gratitude and a way out of the circle.

* Johann : may it be not a matter to let off of the topic, because not very comprehensive made clean for now, but just thought-provoking. My person will now walk down for alms, walking between oxen, buffalos, cows, dogs, pigs and chicken... to approach their owner, possible before the left over has been given for shorter benefits, lacking on other possibilities. It's surely not so easy to see life as it really is, in modern worlds or if having gained a pets-like existence with less possibilities to make merits. "Giving the gift of release" is different to give into holder and pet relation, nurishing dependency. Being meet and seek for equal, associate for normal with that, seldom give into higher, used to it, feel kind of secure, since a long, long time. There is a nice khmer folk tale about the origin of dogs and also one in regard of their behavior. Maybe my person can retell them later. May the gifts of donors toward their beloved relatives, meet them at places where they are capable to receive.
There is a "nice" story meanwhile, given by Bhante Hasapanno , someone with simile Upanissaya, and challenges.

The Special Blessings of Dogs

It's especially to recognize certain dangers, either in putting the Buddha or a dog on the highest place, in regard of what is worthy for veneration on which level.

There are many monks today who, like run-a-mill-people , would just speak in praise of certain "virtues", lifelihood of either the Buddha or dogs, not able to really distince, goodness from goodness. And it's attractive for those seeking pets and holder relations, seek for big following or "security", lack of challenge.

Short in between, audio attached:

Because it's not so easy for those living lives like a luck pet to know others life outside the palace, it "necessary to try to reconstruct certain circumstances by stories.

Here the list of virtues "run-a-mill-people" would count in favor for dogs, incl. some statements, my person will the try to retell the stories of the "ex-novice" told in German already here in the past:

[*] dogs can run fast; people can’t keep up with them
Flies can even fly

[*] dogs can walk in the middle of the night without a flashlight
Nakes and other animals are even more advanced

[*] dogs go into the forest and don’t get thorns in their feet
My person can across more dogs got that, but seldom forestdweller in robes

[*] dogs have ‘celestial nose’ (‘clairsmellent’?!)
They are famous to be bound to their nose, yes

[*] dogs eat without being choosy
That's a very poor observation

[*] when they urinate they raise their leg in salutation to Mother Earth
My person will retell a folktale about this behaviour

[*] dogs do three circumambulations before they lie down
Humans usually turn even more often around till they sleep or rest

[*] when they have sex, they aren’t self-conscious
Holly... maybe the story of the miserable tiny young dog with a over large sexual-organ and his sexual relation with a young pig, as well of the old ugly lady dog, which used to appear only at rutting time on the street between the young dogs fighting, having been served, retreaded again from public, are useful here.

[*] dogs know their owner well
They are well bound to their owner, yes

[*] if a stranger comes, dogs bark
Yes :)

[*] dogs delivering puppies don’t need a doctor or a midwife
? forest people as well, though of Australian, African natives

[*] dogs eat and never get a fishbone stuck in their throat
again, a very poor observation. Dogs, especially in homes, are known to even easy die if getting fish not used to handle it.

[*] dogs never wear clothes
My person would not say that

[*] when they sleep, dogs don’t need a pillow
Forestdweller either

[*] dogs don’t have to spread out a mattress to sleep

[*] dogs can eat and don’t need a drink
Again, a very poor observation

[*] dogs don’t worry about good and evil
That's probably why they bark, bite, turn around three times before lay down?

[*] dogs can lay out in the sun for up to 3 hours
Some (many of certain kind) humans for even 14 days

[*] if it isn’t mating season, dogs don’t have sex
Like all beings according to their habits

[*] a dog who falls in the water doesn’t die; they can swim faster than people
Again, a poor observation

The origin of why humans and dogs became best friends

In earlier time dogs used to live alone in the forest, far away from humans.
One day a dog had the thought to walk out to seek for a friend. While walking he met a rabbit. The rabbit in fear, asked him: "what are you lokking for here?" Approaching him he said: "I am on the search of a friend, do you accept me as your friend? Can I live with your." The rabbit agreed. Shared some food the rabbit had together, they went to sleep. As it was night, the dog waked up and started to howl. Quick the rabbit came out: "Don't do that! The fox will hear that, come, and kill and eat us." The dog thought: "How fearfull this rabbit. I will go to the fox."

He met the fox... [similar] "How fearfull this fox. I will go to the bear."

He met the bear... [similar] "How fearfull this bear. I will go to the humans."

He met the human... As it was night, the dog waked up and started to howl. The man went out, taking some food with him and gave it the dog. The dog thought: "The man does not fear and even gives food at night."

Since this time dogs became best friends with humans.

("sorry", my person is not very skilled in pleasant retelling of stories and entertaining)

Why dogs smell each others backside

In earlier times dogs used to live in near relation ships with monks, served them and keeped the Uposatha.
On one Uposatha the dogs had assambled around the abbot who gavd teachings on Dhamma. It happened that one of the dogs farted and a bad smell filled the holly ceremony.
The abbot, annoyed, asked the group "Who of you farted here respectless?" Non of them gave an answer. The abbot chased all dogs out of the monastery "You can come back when you know who farted!"
Since this time, when ever dogs meet, they would smell each others backside.

On why dogs lift one feet

One time there was a poor old couple, not much to eat they thought it would be good to make merits. So they killed their dog and went to the monastery. Their, in hope of luck, gave the meal to the monks. The abbot, knowing their minds and deeds, did not eat the food and ordered the monks and novices to do likewise. Just one monk ate. As he was a powerful person, full of compassion, he re-jointed the dogs parts and made him alive again, but one leg was missing.
In devotion and remembering this occation, the dogs, till today, use to lift their foot in veneration.

The normal Asian relation to pets generally might be a little reflected here. It's common in rual areas till today, (people often say that it was reinvented at communist times by Chinese and Vietnamese influence amoung the villages in forest areas), to keep dogs like pigs and it's a beloved "barbeque" under hunters, to sacrifice a no more perfect co-worker. Call somebody a dog is like calling someone a pig in the west, while pigs are not really seen as bad as in the west, since they bring more profit then dogs.
If asking childs in villages of what animals eat, on the topic dog, they whould say cow dung. And they are not wrong in as far they observed them in their area.

Likewise with cats. In my persons "first" monastery, till there have been serial discussions in relation of keeping, feeding dogs, keep them dear, arosen, since my person did not consciously prepared the left over and called for meeting to feed, arosen, incl. many lessons. The villagers, knowing the times when the monks there rested or assembled, use to hunt and steal the pets of the monks and also go certain lections from someone who did not rest.

Some stories might be found here or here


[0] Message Index

[#] Next page


Go to full version