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Open monastery, laity practice area- [Öffentliches Kloster, Laienpraxisbereich] (vata assama) => Admirable friend - [Großartiger Freund] kalyanamittata => Topic started by: blazer on November 09, 2022, 02:53:21 PM

Title: Giving care
Post by: blazer on November 09, 2022, 02:53:21 PM
The last two days i have given assistance to a very sick relative.
Having abandoned my job months ago, i had the time and i offered as volunteer for the caring. Please note, giving care has never been my talent, aspiration.
One main reason i've done this is that i have recently heard from Buddha's words that i have a big debt to that person by definition.
It is also true that i've been carrying a huge amount of hatred toward this person because i considered for so many years, and still consider, its behaviour extremely harmful for my person. Having lived with that person so many years resulted in great suffering. Stuff that can bring one from heaven to hell.
This person also tried to convince me to abandon meditation more than one time, time ago.
Since today i struggled maintaining patience i left out that home, having another caregiver come in my place.
 
Giving care to this person is very dangerous for me and preferred to leave, at least for now. Also, it is extremely hard to work properly when giving this service. Mind wandering, expecially on my past, taken place and i didn't notice most of the times. Now i'll try to wander on streets and get some relaxation, peace, restore. I'm very tired and got pains in the body.
I tried to express the highest compassion for the suffering of this being. And still this person shows disrespect toward my person. In general, I've found myself in strange mental states. Now caught by some agitation.



Any advice, guidance is welcome
 _/\_
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 09, 2022, 03:21:45 PM
The are five proper occasions for giving into generosity, Nyom blazer , when a being new arrives, when about to leave, when lack of food, when sick, and someone with virtue at any time with the best one can give.

As for relations of goodness, like parents or others who gave one sphere to become, conditions, means, skills... actually everything, one could carry them a whole live on ones shoulders, massage, wash, feed, give them all wealth, one still would not be able to repay it, yet if one turns one's stingy parents to generosity, unvirtuose, to virtue, unwise toward wisdom... such, aside of the common duties, would be a child of real gratitude, did the best to repay their goodness.

That's a great opportunity and good if not missing any change to act grateful as possible.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on November 09, 2022, 03:28:54 PM
I will try, Ven Johann, thanks for the support.

Strange destiny. I tried to correct the behavior of this person so many times in my life, without lasting success. I told this person this behavior was so harmful and will be going to suffer so much for this in the future. It happend that illnesses taken me, a young me, and more illnesses taken this person.
Once in the far past this person shown high disrespect toward me: instead to embrace and joy my smoking quitting, this person preferred to smoke in front of me to show its "superior position". Much suffering came.
A few time ago this person has taken (among the others) an incurable, painful sickness that came from smoking.
Destiny of bad misdoings? That question came in my mind many times.
Right destiny? This also came, more times.

My world view has been heavily distorced because of this person, which i think is totally fool.
I will review your words again after having taken some rest.
Explicit question: does Ven. Johann consider the best for my path to sacrifice dedication to seclusion and to give care instead? Can try my best but it looks to me that i would not be able to reach significantly high concentrations in this conditions.

 _/\_
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 09, 2022, 04:07:14 PM
If Nyom blazer should call father, mother or caregiver "this person" that best and without excuse Nyom does best for himself to change the addressing right here, how ever improper defilements would prefer to regard.

No relation, not even a merely freely chosen, can be left without gratitude, not to speak of one which one owes a lot.

It's of course not the case that one is required to be grateful for real harmful deeds, but even if not perfect or not beloved, parents actually have No real duties at all, gave at first place, even not knowing the arriveing at all.

(And: smoking, if not something causing shamelessness isn't really harmful, at least much lesser than any other food, not to speak of sensual enjoyments)

Burdened by sickness has the cause of harmful behaviour, causing others pain, ill-will. So good to turn far away from ingratitude, ill-will caused by wishing to control (love, holding on).

Without metta there is neither help for oneself nor for others, without being mindful on ones bodily, verbal deeds, feeling, mindstates, and remembering the Dhamma, one harms where ever trying to help.

Yet, if one's "God" dismisses one clearly, doesn't wish one to follow one's duties, how ever one dries, it then no fault to step back and does one's best in the background, at least with best wishes, giving freedom, and a heart of gratitude, Nyom.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 09, 2022, 04:19:11 PM

Explicit question: does Ven. Johann consider the best for my path to sacrifice dedication to seclusion and to give care instead?

 _/\_
Nyom blazer , if nobody else would look after parents, it would be not so good to leave, and without asking them, it's also not proper to seek the homeless life.

Yet, having asked and gotten leave, then, even if the parents would relay on one for care, it's a gift that one needs to decide alone.

Again: it's impossible to grow into Dhamma, to gain even Jhanas, not to speak of path, fruit, if parents, and other Gods, are not put on right place in ones heart.

It's impossible to lead a fruitful homeless life if that, right view, isn't solved at first place, ever, especially moder/western try: non of those will be regarded as gone forth under the Sublime Buddha yet.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 09, 2022, 04:47:06 PM
It's a blessing to be able to give what ever 'back' to one's parents and 'Gods', very, very less go after, are capable.
Meeting things has causes, good and not so good. But without sacrifices at first place, how could one expect to meet better, best, Nyom blazer . It proper and wise 'selfish' to take the good, oftern much harder way, that against common ways, because at least all that Nyom does, he does 'just' for himself till reaching the stream.

Don't he miss possibility later, if more clear, maybe no more able at all. One who gives good never loses, especialky if based on virtue and good-will: Gratidute.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on November 11, 2022, 07:40:48 PM
About "this person": i would have addressed properly offline. The purpose was not offensive.


No relation, not even a merely freely chosen, can be left without gratitude

This is what i'm used to miss toward people which continues to act in wrong ways despite the fact i'm bringing patience and trying to clean their views.

What are the other Gods others than own parents?
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 11, 2022, 09:43:29 PM
About "this person": i would have addressed properly offline. The purpose was not offensive.


No relation, not even a merely freely chosen, can be left without gratitude

This is what i'm used to miss toward people which continues to act in wrong ways despite the fact i'm bringing patience and trying to clean their views.

Good to foremost clean one's own view, Nyom blazer . And how?

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

From "I have a right", demand:

..."And how is one made impure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: 'May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!' He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is how one is made impure in three ways by mental action...

...to duty and urgency to do not increase but work on way out...

..."And how is one made pure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He does not covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is how one is made pure in three ways by mental action.
...
Quote from: https://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than_en.html

Quote
What are the other Gods others than own parents?

The first Gods are the birth-giver, then those how nourished one, gave medice, shelter, clothes, care, then those who introduced into this world, speech, walking, skills... that common teacher, and the those guiding toward good and heavens, and at least those Gods impossible to repay, him/her leading to firm refuge toward the games, those leading to certain mind-release, and then him/her to Unbond, Nyom.

It's possible that one might have them all in one or two relations, or by many, till stream.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on November 12, 2022, 02:24:05 PM
Thank you, Ven. Johann.
I'll try to fix this view. It is a big challenge. I think it was almost fixed in times i kept no contact.
It looks to me that giving care to a person who badly harmed you is 100x, 1000x times valuable than giving care to "neutral" people, so i cannot understand how such debt cannot be repaid.
What does Ven. Johann thinks?

 _/\_

Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 12, 2022, 04:00:46 PM
One doesn't owe debts to harm and deprive, but to giving, Nyom blazer . Parents give what one desires, sphere, 'flesh', bear much, much burden and could have it removed like a pest sucking blood uninvited or occupy food, place...

Nobody did that for one other then once parents. It's million times higher that human-being are killed by their parents, often right after they get aware of possible burden with the guest.

How many beings did Nyom feed, who started with making burdens when arriving till today? Less would even give it a thought how many times a mother feed them, carried... don't remember, know, what parents sacrificed for huge time.

It's so crazy that in the West people often feel more devoted to pets (although they have no intentional goodness at all, are just addicted and easy to control) than to their parents.

Why? Because not seeing sacrifices of giving but just approve of what their can control, make their own "don't hurt" them.

It's important to be clear that one wished to come, arrive, take place. Nobody forced one to take birth.

Like here. Many took and take care, provide for all that one can take on existance in this more refined realm.

Again: good to try to list, possible ask, of how much and what was sacrificed. Often people are not aware of the "God" around, and when sometimes appearing, it seems like as having come down to harm.

But that's also an issue for parents, to know that their guests, children, are not their own, but just guest one takes care liberal. It happen always that when there is much love, much desire to control, that harm arises naturally.

And again, with gratitude, seeing the sacrifices one received, as child even demanded, forced (by the power of illusion, love), one can tell such, tell to now wishing to go on, and ask whether there would be an open debt one could solve (that's what one does when asking for going forth).

As it is a heavy thing that parents let go of the fruit of so many sacrifices, in traditional countries, to good remember the goodness of parents and leave proper, leaving ceremony might be 3h for the quite shorter ordination.

Modern people, so influenced by wrong view, leave and miss to solve the base: right view.

And as it's also a matter of metta, it's as well a giving freedom from one's side, letting go of both, wishing to nurish on and to control (making his own), knowing the goodness done well.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 12, 2022, 04:09:59 PM
There are some good reads on right view, gratitude, Nyom, beginning with The Lessons of Gratitude (https://sangham.net/en/lib/authors/thanissaro/headandhearttogether/section0004)

See also: Parents: Two short Talks on Gratitude, by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, The Right Angle: It’s Never Wrong, by Venerable Luang Por Liam Thitadhammo and Gratitude, by Ven. Maha Boowa Ñanasampanno.

People sometimes argue in ways "but they just give out of defilements, innoble...", like a lay person once justified to have no gratitude toward his wife's sacrifices: Good to remember that one received the gifts, consumed, got in relation, as well and likewise defiled and innoble (for simply sensual food).

It's ok to leave a contract it seeing harmful for one or others in it. When changing to another innoble one has to fulfill it fist. Just a real Noble way would allow to stop on one side (yet nevertheless knows goodness previous done).
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 15, 2022, 08:39:36 PM
Via sangha-messenger, yesterday, there was much about sickness and attending to the sick. What about Nyom blazer 's interest of what the Buddha had to share about the matter.

/me : btw. , if he likes to join, althought most in Khmer language, Atma thinks he's surely most welcom. If needing email for dhammic purpose, such could be arranged.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on November 17, 2022, 02:28:00 PM
Thanks for the follow up, Ven. Johann.
There's actually a lot to think about on those themes, probably more than i can currently handle.
Thinking about it, and being honest in it, requires a lot of effort. Obviously, there is a debt, noone can deny it.
And debt is there to be repaid, not for hurt, true.

But still, parents may do it "for love", but also "to get someone who will take care of them later", or also "to give sense to their senseless ( so by their own fault ) lives", and so on to more unskillful intentions. They are victims of more than one illusion, often, at least in not so few cases.

Said this, they own a credit in any case for satisfying basic needs and eventually more.
But there can be cases when a child, or a person, wishes to not be born because of misdoings of parents. I have seen many cases of suicidal attempts, caused by behaviors done by parents, so bad that can determine such actions. So, it looks to me the debt, in such cases, has been consumed, dissipated, faded in some way.

It looks to me many people own a pet because they have total control over it, and the pet usually don't hurt them, and is "always loyal". I have observed it many times.

 _/\_

Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 17, 2022, 02:49:13 PM
For example: Within the Buddhas Sasana a preceptor or teacher counts as father of his disciple (child) and there are some accounts on duties when sick:

Kucchivikara-vatthu: The Monk with Dysentery (https://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv08/mv.08.23.than_en.html)

It also counts the qualities for best succes by patient and attend.

(And mistreat of pets isn't unusual as well)

What's Nyom blazer s sphere of deeds, that of which he has some control over? Control of how others conduct, act? Control of fruits arising?
As for the Buddha, he advices to take most control over, hold on, metta and Satipatthana.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 18, 2022, 09:14:29 AM

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa


"And how is one made pure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He does not covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is how one is made pure in three ways by mental action."

— AN 10.176
Quote from: https://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than_en.html#mind
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on November 22, 2022, 07:03:05 PM
Ven. Johann,
i think thinking about gratitude is bringing some results.
Reflections on gratitude pertain not only to this very case, but also on many other cases, included all old bad-ended relations. So it has been quite stressful but maybe i've arrived to a more or less firm point now.

Sightly improvements taken place the last few days. Possibly things will further improve.
For now i have decided to give support, as i've seen it has been appreciated.
It looks to me good fruits have been produced, for me and for others.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on November 22, 2022, 07:27:11 PM
Ven. Johann,
i think thinking about gratitude is bringing some results.
Reflections on gratitude pertain not only to this very case, but also on many other cases, included all old bad-ended relations. So it has been quite stressful but maybe i've arrived to a more or less firm point now.

Sightly improvements taken place the last few days. Possibly things will further improve.
For now i have decided to give support, as i've seen it has been appreciated.
It looks to me good fruits have been produced, for me and for others.

muditā
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on February 17, 2023, 11:24:41 PM
One doesn't owe debts to harm and deprive, but to giving, Nyom blazer . Parents give what one desires, sphere, 'flesh', bear much, much burden and could have it removed like a pest sucking blood uninvited or occupy food, place...

Nobody did that for one other then once parents. It's million times higher that human-being are killed by their parents, often right after they get aware of possible burden with the guest.

How many beings did Nyom feed, who started with making burdens when arriving till today? Less would even give it a thought how many times a mother feed them, carried... don't remember, know, what parents sacrificed for huge time.

It's so crazy that in the West people often feel more devoted to pets (although they have no intentional goodness at all, are just addicted and easy to control) than to their parents.

Why? Because not seeing sacrifices of giving but just approve of what their can control, make their own "don't hurt" them.

It's important to be clear that one wished to come, arrive, take place. Nobody forced one to take birth.

Like here. Many took and take care, provide for all that one can take on existance in this more refined realm.

Again: good to try to list, possible ask, of how much and what was sacrificed. Often people are not aware of the "God" around, and when sometimes appearing, it seems like as having come down to harm.

But that's also an issue for parents, to know that their guests, children, are not their own, but just guest one takes care liberal. It happen always that when there is much love, much desire to control, that harm arises naturally.

And again, with gratitude, seeing the sacrifices one received, as child even demanded, forced (by the power of illusion, love), one can tell such, tell to now wishing to go on, and ask whether there would be an open debt one could solve (that's what one does when asking for going forth).

As it is a heavy thing that parents let go of the fruit of so many sacrifices, in traditional countries, to good remember the goodness of parents and leave proper, leaving ceremony might be 3h for the quite shorter ordination.

Modern people, so influenced by wrong view, leave and miss to solve the base: right view.

And as it's also a matter of metta, it's as well a giving freedom from one's side, letting go of both, wishing to nurish on and to control (making his own), knowing the goodness done well.

Ven. Johann,
i have four points

1) some weeks ago i've read a text ( a sutta if i'm not wrong ) that a son can find his debt extinguished after proper conduct. Is it right?

2) many people take a pet for the reason you told, not only to replace parents but to replace humans, having someone who "doesn't hurt". Personally i've decided to not make childs because of the state of this world. Anyway, sons behavior can be understood once having seen how parents behave with their childs, in many cases, expecially mothers as i've seen. There are true monsters out there, who should think far more before reproducing: the drawback is probably an unloving son, at the very least.
I gave much, much help to people, sons, destroyed by their horrible parents. Parents who deserve to go in jail or to a mental health house for what they have done, caused damages, dishonesty, falsehood when called to respond.

3) I understand the merits of parents. But obviously there should be a line, not right that one makes a child to enslave him or to be free to get control of another's life in more or less sick ways. So it looks to me a parent can lose all of his merits.

4) i'm not sure about what "too much love" means, but it looks to me that often this "love", at least a good part, is just a kind of narcissistic or egoistic perversion.


 _/\_
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 18, 2023, 07:12:37 AM
Nobody asked anybody to come, and nobody took care, even if seeming little, more then one's parents.

Maybe easier to grasp: Some time ago, even in regard of later relation, a devoted told that his wife gives/gave just out of defilements, greed, into their relation, and because of this, he decided, there is no need of gratitude and he could do as he likes.

He just forgets that his part to it is/was likewise just out of defilements, greed, thinks somehow that he has a right on relaying, maybe thinking his part is a pure.

Again, it's neither required to uphold and maintain relations, if seeing really harmful for oneself or others, but either maintaining, or leaving a relation, requires gratitude. As long as not understand, as long as not repaying the part of goodness, by denying goodness and proper obligation, one is not capable to leave.

to 1: There is a way to repay once parents, yes: Kataññu Suttas: Gratitude (https://sangham.net/en/tipitaka/sut/an/an02/an02.031.than)

to 2: Everybody, not in the Noble domain, nourished and seeks relation, seeks for children, off-springs does such only because of greed, craving, because of ignorance. Samsara cannot be end by "birth-regulation" or by "children/raising-education-systems". They are then just slaves of societies, state slaves, with the same issue like with parents.

to 3: Every being, in every relation, is always free to act liberal or selfish, kind or evil. That is why there are debts, other than if it would be fixed destiny or controlled by a creator God.

to 4: always pure selfish, aside of the eight people, Noble Ones, and only Arahats are real giver, Bhagavato. With finding into the Buddhaparisa, giving into any selfish relation, or after children, has end.

So didn't good blazer , notout of pure selfishness, demand and nothing but desires, not only take birth by went into what ever other relation?

That being so, the debt thing, works therefore even more binding and unrepayable, once getting in relation with the parents in Dhamma.

Developing gratitude toward oneself and all others, mudita, is very needed, not only for gaining any Jhana (the Brahma viharas), but also to gain path and fruits.

How can one develop mudita, appreciation toward all beings, frim right view, if not capable to feel obligated toward clear giving?

And yes, althought most, even if claiming to be advanced yogis, are incapable of right thinking, even the happiness and gains of most evil seeming people, is required to appreciate, to be able to leave upwardly.

Right view, gratitude, is so unknown in modern world, so denied that it's most difficult to get a real base of Samvega.

There is another of the less teachings in western language, ggod to seek for, read and reflect: https://sangham.net/en/lib/authors/wijesinghe/gratitude

There is hardly any modern/western teacher understanding and teaching right view, so understandable that hardly ever to meet the basic of the Dhamma.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on February 20, 2023, 02:11:08 AM

As for relations of goodness, like parents or others who gave one sphere to become, conditions, means, skills... actually everything, one could carry them a whole live on ones shoulders, massage, wash, feed, give them all wealth, one still would not be able to repay it, yet if one turns one's stingy parents to generosity, unvirtuose, to virtue, unwise toward wisdom... such, aside of the common duties, would be a child of real gratitude, did the best to repay their goodness.

That's a great opportunity and good if not missing any change to act grateful as possible.

Ven. Johann,
for the point 1, if so is the answer, may i ask why didn't you at time mention the possibility, actually a useful notion, of extinguishment, which could have already happend or eventually possible?
Thank you

 _/\_
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 20, 2023, 05:56:31 AM

As for relations of goodness, like parents or others who gave one sphere to become, conditions, means, skills... actually everything, one could carry them a whole live on ones shoulders, massage, wash, feed, give them all wealth, one still would not be able to repay it, yet if one turns one's stingy parents to generosity, unvirtuose, to virtue, unwise toward wisdom... such, aside of the common duties, would be a child of real gratitude, did the best to repay their goodness.

That's a great opportunity and good if not missing any change to act grateful as possible.

Ven. Johann,
for the point 1, if so is the answer, may i ask why didn't you at time mention the possibility, actually a useful notion, of extinguishment, which could have already happend or eventually possible?
Thank you

 _/\_
Atma is not sure of what's Nyom asked in detail, but guessing that it's now lesser about the fact of duty, debt, but if it can be repayed. Guessing that it's reasked because not repeating the once told.

Aside of that in the mentioned in the linked Sutta, which is not always possible, going after the holly life, if gotten leave, releases form all debts, is highest gratitude, unbiased toward all. Still, when there is relay, it required to do ones duties.

Only an Arahat is without debts and duties, acts simply liberal.
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on February 20, 2023, 03:13:34 PM

As for relations of goodness, like parents or others who gave one sphere to become, conditions, means, skills... actually everything, one could carry them a whole live on ones shoulders, massage, wash, feed, give them all wealth, one still would not be able to repay it, yet if one turns one's stingy parents to generosity, unvirtuose, to virtue, unwise toward wisdom... such, aside of the common duties, would be a child of real gratitude, did the best to repay their goodness.

That's a great opportunity and good if not missing any change to act grateful as possible.

Ven. Johann,
for the point 1, if so is the answer, may i ask why didn't you at time mention the possibility, actually a useful notion, of extinguishment, which could have already happend or eventually possible?
Thank you

 _/\_
Atma is not sure of what's Nyom asked in detail, but guessing that it's now lesser about the fact of duty, debt, but if it can be repayed. Guessing that it's reasked because not repeating the once told.

Aside of that in the mentioned in the linked Sutta, which is not always possible, going after the holly life, if gotten leave, releases form all debts, is highest gratitude, unbiased toward all. Still, when there is relay, it required to do ones duties.

Only an Arahat is without debts and duties, acts simply liberal.

Ven. Johann,
good to know ones releases from all debts once going to the holy life. Could you please give sutta reference?

Your guessing is correct, even if it's not the main reason.
The question arose because i considered this extinguishment point relevant about the topic on parents debt and giving care, expecially in my situation.
The reason is, my toughts, speech and action are influenced by what i read. I can consider it a missing information, which actually drives my behavior.
For example, i could have tought "based on my life and reasoning, i've already extinguished my debt".

Because it is not the first time i feel in this situation of missing informations, i respectfully ask if in such cases there is a purpose or it is just an "error", seen as incomplete answer or as not having reported something relevant ( which my person considers such ).
Thank you

 _/\_

Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 20, 2023, 08:04:47 PM
Maybe Nyom blazer likes to make use of delta-chat, since voice might be sometimes better to avoid misunderstandings or missing points.

Quote
good to know ones releases from all debts once going to the holy life. Could you please give sutta reference?

Going for higher, letting sensual pleasures behind, harmful behind, releases from lower bonds, yes. Yet, 1. not simply by starting the higher task, is one already free from all debts. Again, only and Arahat is free from debts, while one in training still does on debts (if good, just toward the Gems).

2. As debts toward parents are very high, first: the Buddha required to having parents permission to go for higher , second: allowed to care for parents even if gone forth, if required.

Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Moritz on February 24, 2023, 08:16:49 PM
I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on February 24, 2023, 08:21:06 PM
mudita
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on March 03, 2023, 08:12:16 PM
I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Master Moritz,
i'm very happy it helped you!
Mudita  _/\_

Ven Johann,
possibly i'm missing something, but it is very important for me to understand so i have to ask further: how can a chat help in some cases?
After reflection i tought it is possible to repay a debt with parents, and looking for info i've found that the extinction is possible. But i feel it is not good to work with incomplete informations, or better, with informations which miss important points.
So it looks to me it was an error or it was for a purpose, i cannot find other reasons, also because i'm "expecting" perfection in answers or something similar.
May Ven Johann please clarify.
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_


 
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on March 03, 2023, 08:49:20 PM
I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Master Moritz,
i'm very happy it helped you!
Mudita  _/\_

Ven Johann,
possibly i'm missing something, but it is very important for me to understand so i have to ask further: how can a chat help in some cases?
After reflection i tought it is possible to repay a debt with parents, and looking for info i've found that the extinction is possible. But i feel it is not good to work with incomplete informations, or better, with informations which miss important points.
So it looks to me it was an error or it was for a purpose, i cannot find other reasons, also because i'm "expecting" perfection in answers or something similar.
May Ven Johann please clarify.
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Using delta-chat (via email) allows voice, Nyom. That's maybe better. (just install app, use enail account and write to samana.johann@sangham.net or create a group, maybe adding Nyom Moritz. as well, as groups are always better then just two.)
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on March 03, 2023, 09:35:55 PM
I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Master Moritz,
i'm very happy it helped you!
Mudita  _/\_

Ven Johann,
possibly i'm missing something, but it is very important for me to understand so i have to ask further: how can a chat help in some cases?
After reflection i tought it is possible to repay a debt with parents, and looking for info i've found that the extinction is possible. But i feel it is not good to work with incomplete informations, or better, with informations which miss important points.
So it looks to me it was an error or it was for a purpose, i cannot find other reasons, also because i'm "expecting" perfection in answers or something similar.
May Ven Johann please clarify.
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Using delta-chat (via email) allows voice, Nyom. That's maybe better. (just install app, use enail account and write to samana.johann@sangham.net or create a group, maybe adding Nyom Moritz. as well, as groups are always better then just two.)

Ven. Johann,
thanks for your answer. Of course it can be of some help (ven if i prefer to have your words written for better understanding, multiple reading), but still i don't understand why that information was missing. It looks to me it was not a problem of chat/voice availability, the info was just missing.
Please help me to understand.
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on March 03, 2023, 09:53:51 PM
I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Master Moritz,
i'm very happy it helped you!
Mudita  _/\_

Ven Johann,
possibly i'm missing something, but it is very important for me to understand so i have to ask further: how can a chat help in some cases?
After reflection i tought it is possible to repay a debt with parents, and looking for info i've found that the extinction is possible. But i feel it is not good to work with incomplete informations, or better, with informations which miss important points.
So it looks to me it was an error or it was for a purpose, i cannot find other reasons, also because i'm "expecting" perfection in answers or something similar.
May Ven Johann please clarify.
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Using delta-chat (via email) allows voice, Nyom. That's maybe better. (just install app, use enail account and write to samana.johann@sangham.net or create a group, maybe adding Nyom Moritz. as well, as groups are always better then just two.)

Ven. Johann,
thanks for your answer. Of course it can be of some help (ven if i prefer to have your words written for better understanding, multiple reading), but still i don't understand why that information was missing. It looks to me it was not a problem of chat/voice availability, the info was just missing.
Please help me to understand.
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Could Nyom repeat of what he now understands in regard of "giving care", better duties toward parents? (btw. talk is better for cross-intensivation and fill graps, but lets try, step by step)
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on March 03, 2023, 10:49:48 PM
Ven Johann,
as for now, i had the chance to reflect on the relationship and find some of my errors. I also reconsidered the role of parents and their burden. For so, there is a big debt.
Anyway the debt can be extinguished. For example, when a parent harrasses for half life, deprives of heritage, abuses, because of arrogance and stupidity, a big debt can eventually be extinguished, or there can even be a credit.
I gave help, but i'm still convinced i have no debt left, and more, i could even be in credit, expecially by having not taken strong countermeasures to defend myself properly. Actually i consider this could be the case, i have (had) a parent with a debt toward my person.

Why this question?
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on March 04, 2023, 06:35:42 AM
Ven Johann,
as for now, i had the chance to reflect on the relationship and find some of my errors. I also reconsidered the role of parents and their burden. For so, there is a big debt.
Anyway the debt can be extinguished. For example, when a parent harrasses for half life, deprives of heritage, abuses, because of arrogance and stupidity, a big debt can eventually be extinguished, or there can even be a credit.
I gave help, but i'm still convinced i have no debt left, and more, i could even be in credit, expecially by having not taken strong countermeasures to defend myself properly. Actually i consider this could be the case, i have (had) a parent with a debt toward my person.

Why this question?
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Again, no, Nyom blazer .

There is no such as an ideal, similar of what people agree "this is poor and serves help"

The goodness remains given goodness, what one has taken, received. This is why one is capable to develop the Brahma Viharas toward all being, since hardly a being can be found that was not one father, mother. And it has to begin with the first Gods.

It's also not so that there is such as a universal account that one has to bring to zero, for such is impossible.

By ending of craving, stopping of taking on everything, debtlessness is reached, eg. Arahat ship.

If thinking in ways like " I have given back enough", one does not only open up all ways of denying goodness, but develops also hardly Samvega, goes on to incease indebting, taking on anew.

And again, even the conventional debts toward parents, as the Buddha stated, could not be returned by giving all wealth, all services, but just by assisting them toward non-greed, Sila ...

Practice, again, does not seek to balance wander on, but to develop all goodness supportive to be able to leave. The focus is on goodness. At least, what isn't taken from others, of which Nyom could return? How could he give back the assistance he received as he was total helpless, just seeked to take on things, gain birth. Nobody else did give at that point aside of the own parents.

One who eventually sees the whole worlds caught in debt, Samvega, develops care about every being. But such isn't possible if not strong seeing the duty of taking care about one's Gods at first place, still carry notions of wrong view "I have/had a right".
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on March 05, 2023, 03:51:15 PM
Ven Johann,
as for now, i had the chance to reflect on the relationship and find some of my errors. I also reconsidered the role of parents and their burden. For so, there is a big debt.
Anyway the debt can be extinguished. For example, when a parent harrasses for half life, deprives of heritage, abuses, because of arrogance and stupidity, a big debt can eventually be extinguished, or there can even be a credit.
I gave help, but i'm still convinced i have no debt left, and more, i could even be in credit, expecially by having not taken strong countermeasures to defend myself properly. Actually i consider this could be the case, i have (had) a parent with a debt toward my person.

Why this question?
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Again, no, Nyom blazer .

There is no such as an ideal, similar of what people agree "this is poor and serves help"

The goodness remains given goodness, what one has taken, received. This is why one is capable to develop the Brahma Viharas toward all being, since hardly a being can be found that was not one father, mother. And it has to begin with the first Gods.

It's also not so that there is such as a universal account that one has to bring to zero, for such is impossible.

By ending of craving, stopping of taking on everything, debtlessness is reached, eg. Arahat ship.

If thinking in ways like " I have given back enough", one does not only open up all ways of denying goodness, but develops also hardly Samvega, goes on to incease indebting, taking on anew.

And again, even the conventional debts toward parents, as the Buddha stated, could not be returned by giving all wealth, all services, but just by assisting them toward non-greed, Sila ...

Practice, again, does not seek to balance wander on, but to develop all goodness supportive to be able to leave. The focus is on goodness. At least, what isn't taken from others, of which Nyom could return? How could he give back the assistance he received as he was total helpless, just seeked to take on things, gain birth. Nobody else did give at that point aside of the own parents.

One who eventually sees the whole worlds caught in debt, Samvega, develops care about every being. But such isn't possible if not strong seeing the duty of taking care about one's Gods at first place, still carry notions of wrong view "I have/had a right".

I understand that a universal account cannot be brought to zero, as it is impossible, and actually a waste of time and effort. I've not told "i've given back enough", i stopped giving help because it was not possible to give further help. I can say, despite my young age and my relative ignorance, i tried many times to teach good behavior, non greed toward money also. Differently i would not have raised this point. Having read the sutta i knew the ways one can repay parents.
I think i currently not have particular problems related to parents.

Quoting this
"The goodness remains given goodness, what one has taken, received."
So what about the evil? It looks it doesn't generate any debt toward the victim? Is it right?


 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: blazer on March 05, 2023, 03:53:46 PM
May i have an answer to the question i have asked many times?
Also, is there a specific reason you're not answering my question at first place?
Thank you

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Title: Re: Giving care
Post by: Dhammañāṇa on March 05, 2023, 04:20:33 PM
Gratitude, Nyom, is the path toward release, from any and even all relations. Once Nyom can take just this, Nyom got/took so much indebted, that he wouldn't return.

One demanding stays bond.