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Talkbox

2020 Jun 05 10:11:59
Johann: Good Sudhammacari

2020 Jun 05 08:25:42
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jun 05 07:22:29
Johann: A blessed Uposatha all today, and may there all ways to make peace with all being, nature, life around in the world.

2020 Jun 01 10:53:45
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 31 18:59:38
Cheav Villa: Ligthning and Thunder…

2020 May 31 18:52:13
Cheav Villa: The Rain is falling down in PhnomPenh :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 30 07:05:43
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 30 06:51:35
Johann: Those taking on the Uposatha today: may many follow your encouragement when leading after near and those depending on you.

2020 May 29 20:39:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 19:56:20
Johann: What ever sacrificed toward the Sublime Gems, toward liberation, such is condition for no more flowing back into the world. Mudita

2020 May 29 08:40:16
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:34:50
Johann: [continue] ...kāma-guṇa (sensual giving) , death, alive, increasing the cemeteries in the world. This is why just giving toward the virtuous, those with metta, bears fruits beyond the common, as it's not for further kāma-guṇa that they would use it for, but as base for lessons, for purificatio

2020 May 29 08:33:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:27:03
Johann: If one would know or remembering the suffering behind pleasing form, sound, smell, taste, touch, one certain would no more desire after it. But because lof lack of remembering and proper attention, beings go after it, take birth, age, get sick, seperated, die, again and again, keeping the flame of k

2020 May 29 08:15:29
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:15:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 07:42:53
Johann: If ones sacrifices, generosity, isn't protected by a good closed tank, less fruits can be expected. And what is the tank made of? Saddha, Pasada, metta, Sila, intention for own and others independency.

2020 May 29 06:36:24
Johann: A blessed Siladay all who are doing it today

2020 May 28 19:24:28
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 28 18:32:00
Moritz: Upgrade to SMF 2.0.17 has been completed. Everything running smooth for everybody?

2020 May 23 06:43:43
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 22 21:09:34
Johann: May all still continue to spend a blessed New moon Uposatha till break on of a new day (of course good to continue without break). Mudita

2020 May 21 20:16:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 21 19:30:50
Johann: Nothing more a blessing as to do not cling to a specific Nikaya, since one can easy take the opportunity of doing theUposatha often two days a new. May all always make the best of given possibilities.

2020 May 20 21:19:41
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 20 20:44:31
Cheav Villa: May Bhante get well soon.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 20 20:43:13
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 14:55:14
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 12:17:04
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 21:21:28
Johann: Nyom Sophorn

2020 May 17 07:36:11
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 17 07:14:16
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 06:01:03
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2020 May 16 20:42:01
Johann: Bhante

2020 May 15 20:13:51
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 15 19:17:25
Johann: A blessed Siladay ending for those who keep(ed) it today.

2020 May 14 09:09:08
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 14 06:17:12
Johann: A bl3ssed Sila-day those observing it today.

2020 May 12 21:00:24
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 12 19:10:56
Johann: May no one ever, even a moment, forget: "Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven, lordship over all worlds:    the fruit of stream-entry    excels them."

2020 May 10 15:27:11
Depabhasadhamma: Thank you Johann

2020 May 10 15:26:00
Johann: "stand", taking, holding a stand makes it possible more understandable and fits better to it.

2020 May 10 15:24:35
Johann: Welcome Depabasadhamma, Atma will open a topic on it.

2020 May 10 15:04:51
Depabhasadhamma: I am in need of assistance. I am writing a paper about the Three Marks of Existence. I understand the three marks, however, I am befuddled by the meaning and use of the word "existence." Is this English word the translation of the Pali word thiti? Does the word "existence" imply life, living, consci

2020 May 09 21:15:38
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:48:57
Johann: Apsara in Pali: accharā, translation actually "A Whoo!"

2020 May 09 20:45:38
Johann: "...“Then take joy, Nanda. Take joy! I am your guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs.”..."

2020 May 09 20:45:17
Johann: "“What do you think, Nanda? Which is lovelier, better looking, more charming: the Sakyan girl, the envy of the countryside, or these 500 dove-footed nymphs?”..."

2020 May 09 20:43:26
Johann: There was a Bhikkhu "who got an email from an ex-co-dweller" and thought he will return to lower life, Nyom: Nanda Sutta

2020 May 09 20:35:41
Johann: It's actually just about the clothes, since his livemode is already a great Samaneras one.

2020 May 09 20:33:48
Cheav Villa: Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana never heard about the Bhuddha promised..  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 20:33:17
Johann: Till end of Vassa maybe?

2020 May 09 20:25:18
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_ Should try an ordination which in 7days.  _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:16:21
Johann: Apsara (dove feet Devatas).

2020 May 09 20:13:19
Johann: Temporary ordination is pretty normal, 3 days, a month, a Vassa... and not to forget that the Buddha promised union with the Asparas, which are beyond being compareable to others...

2020 May 09 19:25:54
Moritz: No no, I really prefer to be a householder, even though not having a house at the moment. I am not much inclined towards nekkhamma...  ^-^
... even though already doing some nekkhamma now, but not hoping to do so for the long term....

2020 May 09 19:24:05
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 09 19:08:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 19:00:58
Johann: When not working he is already used to where his beige light clean cloth, morning, noon, evening and already good organized.

2020 May 09 18:52:05
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 18:39:04
Johann: Nyom has his working dress and his light formal dress. White he might have possible to much troubles, so better to convince him toward robes.  :)

2020 May 09 17:38:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ Master Moritz should wear white clothes.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 07 15:18:07
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 10:33:24
Johann: Householder clothes are really no more proper for Upasaka Khemadasa.... good to take him fear of the robes

2020 May 07 10:21:10
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 07 10:19:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 07 06:02:32
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 05:46:38
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 07 03:25:02
Khemakumara: May it be a path-and fruitful vesak Uposatha

2020 May 06 16:07:14
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 06 16:02:35
Johann: A blessed Vesaka Puja all, today and tomorrow, in reflection the goodness and qualities of the Sublime Buddha.

2020 May 04 21:25:10
Johann: followed by another overload by huawei-search engines... fixed

2020 May 04 20:31:45
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 04 20:25:53
Johann: A MS search engine (Bing) had overloaded the server capacity and might had caused the page not to be reached, but a cave-programmer quickly solved the issue, becoming aware of it. Sadhu

2020 May 03 21:13:46
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante Ariyadhammika _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 20:32:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 19:15:52
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2020 May 03 15:01:43
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 03 12:53:08
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 May 03 12:07:17
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 03 12:00:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 09:39:36
Johann: ...and the snake hunts the mice...

2020 May 03 09:11:20
Johann: Dwelling like Devas under Devas, peaceful, respectful, careful, harmless

2020 Apr 30 10:05:08
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:15:43
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:08:53
Johann: May all spend a meritful end of Sila-day, those who taking on it today, and maybe continue with those doing so tomorrow.

2020 Apr 29 20:09:39
Johann: Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 29 20:07:29
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:26:31
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 26 20:23:57
Cheav Villa: and Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:23:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:30
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:25
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 08:18:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 07:18:02
Johann: Ādīnava , អដីនវ, As one of ten perceptions: AN 10.60

2020 Apr 26 07:09:32
Johann: May Dukkha be visible for all, so to stay on the path  that leads beyond and liberation.

2020 Apr 25 16:57:34
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 25 15:54:00
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

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Author Topic: [Q&A] Are the Jataka stories authentic or later additions? Are they missleading?  (Read 784 times)

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Offline Johann

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  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
In what timeframe was Jataka tales added to Kuddaka Nikaya?

Are the Jataka tales of the Pali Canon authentic words of the Buddha?

Are the 547 Jataka tales in Khuddaka Nikāya considered as authentic words of the Buddha? Were they compiled into the Canon in the first council itself (like most of the Sutta pitaka)? If not, in which council would have this been added?

When I look at the Jataka tales, there are some portions in verse form and the rest in prose. I was told that the prose is a commentary added later. However, much of the story evolves only through the prose portion. Is it documented anywhere in the Canon that those commentaries are based on an oral lineage of the stories passing down all the way from the Buddha?

I am trying to see whether the presence of certain characters and stories in the Jataka tales can be taken as a proof for them being known in that form in the time of the Buddha.

(Note that the original question on Bu-SE, on which the answer, found under the quotelink, already be changed by third person.)

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" - which also could have been changed by third person - that can be found here . )


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.

At one occation the "Bu-SE yogis" have assembled in the forum and talked about "Are the Jataka tales of the Pali Canon authentic words of the Buddha? In what timeframe was Jataka tales added to Kuddaka Nikaya?", histrory, bad and good guys a around it, and soon engaged in loud disputes. Then Johann entered and looked after what the matter was and thought "it would be better to talk on Dhamma or dwell in silence (2. Jhana), what would be good here to give or to avoid?" And then wrote:


 (Note, the stile here is to make it more alive and a teaching itself, no need to assume Johann as Buddha, Noble One or anything special at all. But you can use such idea to lift yourself and your awarness, if you like and find it useful)



Relating a little to the answer of Dhammadhuta here and it'spossible problems: both, to be and not to be, are no really useful question for the path. Why, because if pondering whether "is it?" or "is it not?" "was it?" "was it not?" "what will it be if it was?" "if it was not, where...?", all this questions that cause dukkha are not contuctive for getting beyound1 suffering and stress and one can continue them endless and each taking stand will cause another to fight it.

So maybe its better to ask:
  • 1. "How have the stories be used, for a good, such a long time?"
or
  • 2. "What do I not see for now, or overlook currently, that I see there conratictions? Which part did I not understand, so that it causes me doubt? Do I have proper attention?"

To regard the first: When reading the stories, and look also torward the situations they are told, the actors, their structure and the possible purpose (see also "Befriending the Suttas - Tips on Reading the Pali Discourses " in this manner, when starting with the stories situations when told by themselves, they mostly have been stories being told when the community of monks was assembled and allone with the Buddha, mostly the monks just involved in idle talk, or when issues in regard if Vinaya or special things happened.

When the minds awarness is currently in a very low stage, eager after papañca, its not possible to pull it into a sphere of Jhāna, and teach then things beyound the world. So the anchor here was always also very wordily, to use the situation, to give a lesson on moral, Vinaya, and mostly to increase faith, that the audiance will be urged on one hand: "if you do like them, you will face this" (saṃvega) and on the other hand faith (saddhā) or pasāda in this regard, that "even not really practising on the path now, my merits have been of that sort, that I am now able to teach you as a Buddha", aside of the many sacrifies done to gain such perfections. So they are mostly not really purposed - and in situations - when supramudane teaching would have been possible.

In regard of urging the monks, for certain purpose of stilling desire after wordily stories - like you mostly here have, TV, relatives... and certain interest in socializing, or in the way my person here presents an answer - similar to this, rendered not with to high teaching to keep the mind entertaint, and lift it to the most possible state, teaching there faith and precepts, the basics for the path.

Such teaching in stories, if either intended for idle purpose, to simply socialize for gains, or when meeting an audience that is only capable to use the food for entertaining the mind wrong, is of course fast and easy to use for currupt ways and for a bad.

Here again, the stories most have been told under the monks and in certain situations. Since a longer it was usual - especially because the targeted audience is/was, if after gain, naturally a greedy one and after low etertainment - to use them as simple medium for improper purposes, but that circumstances does not make themselves bad, useless, unreal or not conductive perse.

Every good teachers, focused exclusively on path and fruits to be gained by their disciples, past, now, later, will from time to time sit down with their disciples and tell "very human" stories.

My person, for example, likes to tell such a "Jataka" in relation of "when I was stil a Bodhisatta, not walking direct on the path", "Devas", and fatherday, within the next time maybe, to give a moral lesson and chances to increase faith (saddhā, sīla and certain amout of saṃvega) - somehow a combinatiom like in the cinema (action, horror and love) - for a good entertainment and purpose to increase the good qualities of mind, not to seek honor and look after audience for gains, but even "risking" that most will say "look at this crazy" and leave.

The secound question is this of encountering seemingly conflicts, more and lesser, which mostly is because we again have this "this is real, only this" desire, forgetting that the teaching is a step by step way and has not equanimity and or Nibbana at the beginn, in the middle and in the end as means, but that are they are results of seeing "now this is the front and that is the behind" and vici versa, and to know where our mind currently dwells, is attached with.

If we make all a matter of "not-self" not understanding that there are places where we need to multiplicate and places where we need to divide to get the task of de-velopement done, we/they are not only simply celebrate the Uposatha of the Jains , being just thieves, and by time cut us/them simply off the path, for long time.

On the other hand, if we use the Jatakas like those celerbrating the Uposatha of the cowherds, we/they might not shine radiant, but do at least not cut them off from the path entirely, even if simply after gain, and at least keep the cart, even without goods inside, alive.

If we use them like the elders and wise did, since they exist, for laypeople especilly and all those still need to increase moral and faith to gain path, than we simply use them for the Ariya-Uposatha purpose, take the moral, practice of the eight Silas minimum, while listening and rejoice in the dwelling, caused by the reflections, buddhānussati, ... devatānussati, turn our mind to where ever it is nice to dwell, or even use the teachings of a higher, when having reached this concentrations, and go beyound rebirth and their stories.

How ever, without the steps and their means, the higher can not be reached, and whether they have been true, the steps and means, you will know only for sure, if you could have reached the heavenly realms or even awakening. As for the last: it might be that you even again, do not really grasp after this question any more, but maybe just give them as means for others, to be able to clime up and beyound where you have already gone: beyond or in trust like the elders, did for now.

So having actually not been anywhere, it would be maybe not wise to cut away, and destroy by starving it, what you can not understand for notw, or not clear enough to understand the purpose before having done the task.

To give at the end a simily of Ajhan Chah:

 
Quote
Rubbing Fire Sticks

The practice is like a man rubbing fire sticks together. He's heard people say, "Take two pieces of bamboo and rub them together, and you'll get fire." So he takes two pieces of bamboo and rubs them together. But his heart is impatient. After rubbing them together a bit he wants there to be fire. His heart keeps pushing for the fire to come quickly, but the fire just won't come. He starts getting lazy, so he stops to rest. Then he tries rubbing the sticks together again for a little bit, and then stops to rest. Whatever warmth there was disappears, because the warmth isn't connected.

If he keeps acting like this, stopping whenever he gets tired — although just being tired isn't so bad: His laziness gets mixed in too, so the whole thing goes to pieces. He decides that there is no fire, he doesn't want fire after all, so he gives up. He stops. He won't rub the sticks anymore. Then he goes about announcing, "There is no fire. You can't get it this way. There is no fire. I've already tried."

With other words, even you might know how to make fire, being taught with stones, don't run around and say "Its not possible with stones" either because you have not tried or could not manage, or because you did not know that the master teached in other ways, to come to the path that consumes the fires and releases, as well.

Release is the aim, while how to make fire and the consume of it, are just needed and good means. Don't waste time with "it is real - it is not real", "be or not be" for phenomenas have causes, also the phenomena to see as it really is, and then the unbound remains.

And my person does not tell you - either because he does not know, or to provoke skillful speculations - who had been Gunavijaya, Hellyell, Dhamnadhatu and he at the Buddhas time. Tendencies and upanissāya are not easy to chance, since such reqires not only nissāyapaccaya but upanissāyapaccayena like for people, places, weather and prefered food. That being a teaching, that the Jatakas also transport, while the Suttas are for those who have more freedom to chance already accumulated.

And on that occation Johann said:

"Right decictions to chance ones foolish ways can be made every time, but the fool, attached to the food he is used since a child, does not taste what is not known to him but paised by the wise. Thinking having gone beyound already, they continue to take live, take what is not given, abuse and tell what isn't fact, oppose the wise and nourish on the poison of desire after gain. Again and again reappear in the world of pain. Those who tast gain release."

After that teaching 30 readers took refuge in the Buddha, in hiscommunity of monks and his Dhamma and became Faith-follower, 30 readers gained Streamentry and Gunavijaya rejoiced in the words and left.


(Note: This is a gift of Dhamma not meant for commercial purposes or other wordily gains.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 12:01:07 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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