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... even though already doing some nekkhamma now, but not hoping to do so for the long term....

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Author Topic: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?  (Read 2945 times)

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Offline Johann

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How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« on: September 30, 2017, 07:21:34 AM »



How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?

According to the suttas in SN13 , a stream enterer (or stream winner or sotapanna ) only has at most, seven remaining lifetimes, before they are permanently freed from suffering.

On the other hand, takers of the Mahayana Bodhisattva vow , would forego enlightenment for a very long time (apparently aeons), till they complete the full Bodhisattva training (which I presume is the development of paramitas and the attainment of bhumis ).

However, this implies that they need to avoid stream entry, which could cause them to become released from suffering in seven lifetimes at most.

So, how do they avoid stream entry? Do they avoid it by avoiding the practice of insight meditation (vipassana ) perhaps?

My person anwered there as following:

[Note: This is a gift of Dhamma, not meant for commercial purpose or other wordily gaining (possible not good for those desire for becoming a Buddha and not firm in it.]

Usually/practical by avoiding to listening the Dhamma of a Buddha and taking care of not gaining wisdom or right view. So avoiding the three Juwels as good as possible, if still present in the world.

Maybe some food for benefical thought: A Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha?

Here in Cambodia, people who have not really taken refuge into the Juwels, so if speaking about people not explicit Dhammika, are called "Buddh(a)bodhisatt(a)".

Since the root of stream-entry is right view, this has to be avoided, if one wishes to become a Buddha. If such is possible, having been touched by the good Dhamma... who knows...

Of coures it might be, that seven lives as a certain devas lasts as long as a world period. Did not made more researches in this regard.

This might be also useful for those desiring becoming a Buddha: Bodhisatta Path Answers of questions

And a nice Bodhisatta-story: The Spiritual Partner

Sotapanna (stream-enter/wisdom throw hearing) is connected with the four Noble Truth. If, when a person heard the 4NT, understanding them, not mental cognitive defect, can than, later, take on Bodhisatta-vows and avoid stream entry: my person doubts. He/she will gain the path latest with death. So possible a wasted time with a lot of pain, struggle and suffering, if having heard and understood the Dhamma, to try to avoid entry afterwards.

Some say there is a point in the Vipassana-states, where one might have gained some good insight, and where one is able to decide. A hint on it is in the 'Question and Answer' link.

It might be therefore (for a desire of becoming a Buddha), good to take on the vows before hearing the Four Noble Truth and understanding them, e.g. not taking refuge into the current Buddha, his Dhamma, his Sangha.


My person just thought of what Upasaka Dmytro ( Admin ) would have to add or correct.
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Offline gus

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2018, 10:16:24 AM »
Okasa bhante and all,

I'll give you all some more data on this regard, so that you will be able to analyse.

Ven. Ananda Maitreya had said:
When he was meditating he could attain sankharupekkha vipassana nana in a short time compared to others but couldn't achieve any further development for a long time. So he had reported it to his teacher and the teacher had asked him whether he had any other hopes. After ven. Maitreya had replied "yes, to become a Buddha ", his teacher had said "if it is so, you can't advance any further".

Ven. Ariyadhamma and his teacher ven. Jinavamsa are said to be have the same experience. Ven. Ariyadhamma had said that only a rare person with exceptional energy can attain buddhahood. Once he had asked a question from a criticizer "if everyone refuse buddhahood then who will establish a buddha sasana? who will help others?"

Ven. Nanarama had said many bodhisattas can't achieve the goal and they will have to change the goal to become pacceka buddha or arahant.

Ven. Dhamajiva had said that the people who have kindness over wisdom tend to go in the bodhisatta path and the people who have wisdom over karuna tend to attain nibbana in this very life. He advises both type of people to develop their lacking quality in order to become balanced.

Some criticizers of bodhisatta path say that many people have decided to become bodhisattas because of the 'mana' (superiority complex) or failure to become successful in practice.

Once a leader temple monk criticized bodhisatta path saying it is an ignorant idea, but bhikkhu Nanananda had said that it is not good to shame bodhisattas.

Vandami.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 10:24:06 AM by gus »

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2018, 07:42:18 PM »
A short anecdote:

Once my person left home/household under the gems as a wanderer, a beggar with not any society as refuge, after a day walk, burned feets (it's hard to cross the area around a city where just cars are used to move along till first shadow can be found), he come to a monastery.
It was "accidentally" one of the best "teaching young Bhikkhus monasteries".

The Ven. Abbot just cross-questioned his disciples as my person approached, willing to ask to spend some days to look after the feets and to repair and prepare the robes since they had been in bad conditions.

After having got a place to sit, some water to clean the feets, water, he continued to cross-question his well-versed disciples: "What do you think. Is it samma ditthi or miccha ditthi if one desires to become a Buddha?" They discussed, could not really agree, argued... Then he turned to my person. The answer was clear.

After explaining, after approve, the young monks, understanding it and no more doubt, they asked: "How is it, how can it be possible, that this person, having not nearly learned only a little like use, was able to answer the question (with certain amount of issa)."

He just said: "That's the different between practicing and learning."

Since one has strong desire, attachments toward home, toward world, a Bodhisatta is not able to leave home, having not left home, how could he ever see beyond, how could he ever gain right view and develop right view before he possible meets his last birth, having figured out that no refuge can be found in the many homes, worlds, what ever far or near.

This is why a good father would not advice his children to walk the same long burdenful path, let them make the same mistakes, but show them the direct way to that what he has archived. No Buddha, no Arahat, no good father would ever advice people to walk only a day an insecure and maybe wrong way, would never advice their children to do all to become a father one day, to walk following his many failings and hardships.

It's simply 'mana' or 'maya' (illusion following Mahayanas use of this world) that one desires to become this or that for this or that sake.
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Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2018, 08:24:45 PM »
Going down into the dark, looking for the glas my person left outside, fellow Bhante actually already placed on it's proper place, someone came across to explain the whole issue again with his situation by picture, teaching Dhamma by pictures, to understand:

[img]
user:johann:gallery:archiv2018:20180930_05.jpg
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Offline gus

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2018, 04:39:22 AM »
Okasa,

As I remember, the Awakened One has said two things similar to the below.
 
  • "I don't praise the practice of more 'parahita' at the cost of 'attahita'."
  • "I don't praise waiting in 'bhava' at least for a moment."

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2018, 01:05:26 PM »
Does Deva gus likes to explain word and meaning of 1. and. 2.?

Especialy the secound does look like that it needs aditional explaining. If standing alone out of context it's not only condraticion to his own teachings but leads to misunderstanding and extreme. It's that the statement of an accomplished person, and a-sekha? Jhana is a matter of Bhava, developing the path is bhava (developing, producing)... Or is a bhāva (being, stand) and bhava confusion of mine here?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 01:16:27 PM by Johann »
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Offline gus

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 01:27:25 PM »
Okasa bhante,

Actually I don't remember the relevant suttas. As I remember,

1.The Buddha has discouraged dedicating for the welfare of others at the expense of one's own practice; Or discouraged hindering one's own practice in order to help others.
(in some other sutta: "atta-hita and neva-para-hita person" has been categorized as better than "neva-atta-hita and para-hita" person. )

2.The Buddha don't praise delaying  in samsara (as an non-arahant) at least for an instant. (I think this is an advise to be heedful)

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2018, 02:41:38 PM »
Sadhu!

To provide the certain suttas (parts of vinaya, and topics here) may require some time.

Probably most famous for not so literary understanding of 1. is "The Bamboo acrobat", Sedhaka Sutta, SN 47.19 if remembering right.
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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2018, 12:54:35 AM »
"Bodhisatta" and the "not fearless" Ajahn Mun:

“The Dhamma of these latter-day sages will be a new, modern Dhamma whose attainment requires no troublesome investigations. All that's required to attain magga and phala is a chorus of moaning and groaning, a method suited to an age when people prefer to seek righteous results from unrighteous causes – a pernicious attitude consuming the whole world today. Before long there won't be enough room on the planet to hold all these modern-day sages. I myself have an old-fashioned mentality. I trust what the Lord Buddha taught and dare not take any shortcuts. I am afraid that, as soon as I put a foot forward, I would fall flat on my face – and die there in disgrace. That would be immensely heartbreaking for me.”
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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 05:47:41 AM »
Okasa bhante,
"Bodhisatta" and the "not fearless" Ajahn Mun:

“All that's required to attain magga and phala is a chorus of moaning and groaning, ..”

What does here "chorus of moaning and groaning means? What is it's relationship with modern sages? Is it a criticism of weak effort or something else?

Vandami.

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