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Talkbox

2020 May 29 20:39:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 19:56:20
Johann: What ever sacrificed toward the Sublime Gems, toward liberation, such is condition for no more flowing back into the world. Mudita

2020 May 29 08:40:16
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:34:50
Johann: [continue] ...kāma-guṇa (sensual giving) , death, alive, increasing the cemeteries in the world. This is why just giving toward the virtuous, those with metta, bears fruits beyond the common, as it's not for further kāma-guṇa that they would use it for, but as base for lessons, for purificatio

2020 May 29 08:33:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:27:03
Johann: If one would know or remembering the suffering behind pleasing form, sound, smell, taste, touch, one certain would no more desire after it. But because lof lack of remembering and proper attention, beings go after it, take birth, age, get sick, seperated, die, again and again, keeping the flame of k

2020 May 29 08:15:29
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:15:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 07:42:53
Johann: If ones sacrifices, generosity, isn't protected by a good closed tank, less fruits can be expected. And what is the tank made of? Saddha, Pasada, metta, Sila, intention for own and others independency.

2020 May 29 06:36:24
Johann: A blessed Siladay all who are doing it today

2020 May 28 19:24:28
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 28 18:32:00
Moritz: Upgrade to SMF 2.0.17 has been completed. Everything running smooth for everybody?

2020 May 23 06:43:43
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 22 21:09:34
Johann: May all still continue to spend a blessed New moon Uposatha till break on of a new day (of course good to continue without break). Mudita

2020 May 21 20:16:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 21 19:30:50
Johann: Nothing more a blessing as to do not cling to a specific Nikaya, since one can easy take the opportunity of doing theUposatha often two days a new. May all always make the best of given possibilities.

2020 May 20 21:19:41
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 20 20:44:31
Cheav Villa: May Bhante get well soon.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 20 20:43:13
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 14:55:14
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 12:17:04
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 21:21:28
Johann: Nyom Sophorn

2020 May 17 07:36:11
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 17 07:14:16
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 06:01:03
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2020 May 16 20:42:01
Johann: Bhante

2020 May 15 20:13:51
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 15 19:17:25
Johann: A blessed Siladay ending for those who keep(ed) it today.

2020 May 14 09:09:08
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 14 06:17:12
Johann: A bl3ssed Sila-day those observing it today.

2020 May 12 21:00:24
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 12 19:10:56
Johann: May no one ever, even a moment, forget: "Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven, lordship over all worlds:    the fruit of stream-entry    excels them."

2020 May 10 15:27:11
Depabhasadhamma: Thank you Johann

2020 May 10 15:26:00
Johann: "stand", taking, holding a stand makes it possible more understandable and fits better to it.

2020 May 10 15:24:35
Johann: Welcome Depabasadhamma, Atma will open a topic on it.

2020 May 10 15:04:51
Depabhasadhamma: I am in need of assistance. I am writing a paper about the Three Marks of Existence. I understand the three marks, however, I am befuddled by the meaning and use of the word "existence." Is this English word the translation of the Pali word thiti? Does the word "existence" imply life, living, consci

2020 May 09 21:15:38
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:48:57
Johann: Apsara in Pali: accharā, translation actually "A Whoo!"

2020 May 09 20:45:38
Johann: "...“Then take joy, Nanda. Take joy! I am your guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs.”..."

2020 May 09 20:45:17
Johann: "“What do you think, Nanda? Which is lovelier, better looking, more charming: the Sakyan girl, the envy of the countryside, or these 500 dove-footed nymphs?”..."

2020 May 09 20:43:26
Johann: There was a Bhikkhu "who got an email from an ex-co-dweller" and thought he will return to lower life, Nyom: Nanda Sutta

2020 May 09 20:35:41
Johann: It's actually just about the clothes, since his livemode is already a great Samaneras one.

2020 May 09 20:33:48
Cheav Villa: Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana never heard about the Bhuddha promised..  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 20:33:17
Johann: Till end of Vassa maybe?

2020 May 09 20:25:18
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_ Should try an ordination which in 7days.  _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:16:21
Johann: Apsara (dove feet Devatas).

2020 May 09 20:13:19
Johann: Temporary ordination is pretty normal, 3 days, a month, a Vassa... and not to forget that the Buddha promised union with the Asparas, which are beyond being compareable to others...

2020 May 09 19:25:54
Moritz: No no, I really prefer to be a householder, even though not having a house at the moment. I am not much inclined towards nekkhamma...  ^-^
... even though already doing some nekkhamma now, but not hoping to do so for the long term....

2020 May 09 19:24:05
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 09 19:08:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 19:00:58
Johann: When not working he is already used to where his beige light clean cloth, morning, noon, evening and already good organized.

2020 May 09 18:52:05
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 18:39:04
Johann: Nyom has his working dress and his light formal dress. White he might have possible to much troubles, so better to convince him toward robes.  :)

2020 May 09 17:38:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ Master Moritz should wear white clothes.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 07 15:18:07
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 10:33:24
Johann: Householder clothes are really no more proper for Upasaka Khemadasa.... good to take him fear of the robes

2020 May 07 10:21:10
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 07 10:19:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 07 06:02:32
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 05:46:38
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 07 03:25:02
Khemakumara: May it be a path-and fruitful vesak Uposatha

2020 May 06 16:07:14
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 06 16:02:35
Johann: A blessed Vesaka Puja all, today and tomorrow, in reflection the goodness and qualities of the Sublime Buddha.

2020 May 04 21:25:10
Johann: followed by another overload by huawei-search engines... fixed

2020 May 04 20:31:45
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 04 20:25:53
Johann: A MS search engine (Bing) had overloaded the server capacity and might had caused the page not to be reached, but a cave-programmer quickly solved the issue, becoming aware of it. Sadhu

2020 May 03 21:13:46
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante Ariyadhammika _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 20:32:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 19:15:52
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2020 May 03 15:01:43
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 03 12:53:08
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 May 03 12:07:17
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 03 12:00:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 09:39:36
Johann: ...and the snake hunts the mice...

2020 May 03 09:11:20
Johann: Dwelling like Devas under Devas, peaceful, respectful, careful, harmless

2020 Apr 30 10:05:08
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:15:43
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:08:53
Johann: May all spend a meritful end of Sila-day, those who taking on it today, and maybe continue with those doing so tomorrow.

2020 Apr 29 20:09:39
Johann: Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 29 20:07:29
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:26:31
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 26 20:23:57
Cheav Villa: and Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:23:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:30
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:25
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 08:18:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 07:18:02
Johann: Ādīnava , អដីនវ, As one of ten perceptions: AN 10.60

2020 Apr 26 07:09:32
Johann: May Dukkha be visible for all, so to stay on the path  that leads beyond and liberation.

2020 Apr 25 16:57:34
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 25 15:54:00
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 23 18:41:59
Johann: Sadhu for care to report and assist

2020 Apr 23 18:39:44
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana now not get notification.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 23 15:04:07
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 23 13:45:57
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 22 11:17:56
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2020 Apr 22 06:38:01
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 Apr 22 05:45:37
Khemakumara: karuṇā, corona? which one prefers?   may it a fruit- and pathful Uposatha!

2020 Apr 21 19:53:51
Johann: If Nyom likes to use Atmas tablet and Sim, just pick it up at any time.

2020 Apr 21 19:49:09
Moritz: Smart connection works well.

2020 Apr 21 19:48:53
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante, mobile hotspot from the cave does not really reach well here. So can be turned off. Thank you. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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Author Topic: [Q&A] What's the effect of association with outcasts?  (Read 687 times)

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Offline Johann

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[Q&A] What's the effect of association with outcasts?
« on: May 22, 2019, 04:22:45 PM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Venerable Members of the Sangha,
Venerable Fellows,

Honored Buddha Parisata,
Valued Upasaka, Upasika,
Interested,

May those advanced and skilled in Dhamma, out of compassion, correct my persons mistakes and possible fill up with missing explaining if not well presented.

What's the effect of association with outcasts?

Even if out of "compassion", what's the effect of association with outcasts , even appear as "family-member" of such?

What's the effect of being related to those who are actually turned over the bowl?

Associate with thieves, slander, people who speak in dispraise of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, gratitude, generosity, virtue... those who use generosity to offend the giver... with no regard for hospitality, training, teacher, faith...

Do they risk to be avoided likewise by the wise and good?

How are people adviced to act in regard of outcasts? To bear such, or to avoid any association or ways that look like as if?


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

From the Sutta Nipata: The famouse Mangala sutta , the highest blessings, starts with:

   

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Asevanā ca bālānaṃ paṇḍitānañca sevanā, Pūjā ca pūjanīyānaṃ etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ. The Buddha: Not consorting with fools, consorting with the wise, paying homage to those worthy of homage: This is the highest protection.

       

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The vicious are dear to him. He likes not the virtuous; he approves the teachings of the ill-natured — this is the cause of his downfall.


There is no more clear advice in regard of association, then in regard of fools, outcasts and bad friends, since it is the only outer condition of either growth or downfall. A clear "Not to do! When ever traced"

To take such even as advisor, a person of wrong view, or dwell in areas where "outcasts" even get a lot of reputation, shows just the natural flow of those possible never will meet the good teachings. Becoming and resist there one cultivates many "enemies" and increases suffering for both, others and oneself.

While such as pain, harsh words... is something that one should endurance, fools are to be avoided:

   

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"[5] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, avoids a wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer. Reflecting appropriately, he avoids sitting in the sorts of unsuitable seats, wandering to the sorts of unsuitable habitats, and associating with the sorts of bad friends that would make his knowledgeable friends in the holy life suspect him of evil conduct. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to avoid these things do not arise for him when he avoids them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding.

So even if there is the danger to be suspected associating with such!

Since association has (even not recognized) extreme fast impart one oneself, nothing more is urged, as outer needed condition, as to avoid evil people and wrong view.

There is not a single account to be found, that the Buddha and wise advice in ways of seeing it easy, but the opposite.

Even in regard of people how are actually no more able to fall down, who could resist under people with wrong views, or in regard of simply dwelling near, the Buddha advised not to do such, because at least one could be suspect to associate and would therefore be avoided by good people and one gives a sample for others who might be not that strong to resist for themselves.

A well-known simile in regard of assiciation is that of a banana leave taking on the smell of fermented fish.

The fermentation of foolish compassion with people who can actually only be helped by avoiding, if, effects for one not only the reputation of being not firm in faith of the Buddhas advises but also the circumstance to be suspected being another of those outcasts, one who approves their ways.

Even under recluses:

       

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Bhikkhus, these three persons are evident in the world. Which three? A certain person should be loathed, should not be associated. The second should be looked after not associated and the third should be associated. Bhikkhus, which person should be loathed and not associated. Here a certain person is unvirtuous, with evil thoughts like rubbish, with secret actions, with only a promise to recluseship, festering inside and filth oozing out. Bhikkhus, this kind of person should be loathed, should not be associated. What is the reason? In some way if this person is not imitated, ill fame spreads, this is an evil friend, an associate of evil. Just as a serpent with excreta on its body would not sting anyone, for he smears excreta. In the same manner an unvirtuous person with evil thoughts similar to rubbish, with secret actions, with only a promise to recluseship, festering inside and filth oozing out should be loathed, should not be associated.

More on friendship and association here: Admirable friend - [Großartiger Freund] kalyanamittata.
 


Whether one is capable to trace of what is good or bad, aside of the prerequisite of being informed, is of course a matter of ones Upanissaya and tendency, and nobody, at least, could those by their tendencies destined to bad association, help out. Not even the Sublime Buddha.

How ever, for those with Nissaya to a better useful is: How to address wrong view?

In regard whether such people, associating with outcasts, are avoided as well: As in regard of Vinaya and rules of Monks, yes, they have to. Different, to those who are not instructed may tell, there are firm rules to separate those with wrong views and bad conducts out or to be avoided.

In areas of fools, naturally wise and Dhamma gets censured, yes. Recognizing such is also a strong sign saying: "run away". So one should take care with whom one associates and in which spheres you get involved. Smell last long and you might not that independent from support of wise as you may think for now. Sure, one might get avoided by bad people, even people once near, but as the Buddha told:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

76. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the sixth.

77. "Bhikkhus, the increase of relations is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom.

To address a possible misunderstanding of the meaning of "avoiding". Such is not done because one does not like certain people but all what an act of compassion, for others and oneself can effort. If not avoiding it would either hurt you or someone else. Leaving a field where one can not contribute helpful since no capability to receive is present, does no mean that a serious with of goodwill and compassion is not even the reason for such an act.

It's also not so that one should cut off such relations for ever and close others doors. If one is willing to see ones faults, to confess ones previous wrong views and resolves to change his/her way, it would be (at least if following Vinaya) a fault not to forgive and reinstall someone who was lost.

As such as avoiding or leaving can have huge impact, one should of cause prove the situation well and possible also ask wise people for guidance and measures of how to get it rightly judged. One can not always trust ones moods and preoccupations may cause shadows that one does not see clear.

May it be of help for those who tend to think that community-harmony and unity in big scale is the highest, those who have strong attachments toward socializing with many and those who tend to sacrifices what maybe would be need for oneself for the sake of losing a glass of pure water by poring it into a muddy sea. 
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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