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Talkbox

2020 May 30 07:05:43
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 30 06:51:35
Johann: Those taking on the Uposatha today: may many follow your encouragement when leading after near and those depending on you.

2020 May 29 20:39:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 19:56:20
Johann: What ever sacrificed toward the Sublime Gems, toward liberation, such is condition for no more flowing back into the world. Mudita

2020 May 29 08:40:16
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:34:50
Johann: [continue] ...kāma-guṇa (sensual giving) , death, alive, increasing the cemeteries in the world. This is why just giving toward the virtuous, those with metta, bears fruits beyond the common, as it's not for further kāma-guṇa that they would use it for, but as base for lessons, for purificatio

2020 May 29 08:33:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:27:03
Johann: If one would know or remembering the suffering behind pleasing form, sound, smell, taste, touch, one certain would no more desire after it. But because lof lack of remembering and proper attention, beings go after it, take birth, age, get sick, seperated, die, again and again, keeping the flame of k

2020 May 29 08:15:29
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 08:15:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 29 07:42:53
Johann: If ones sacrifices, generosity, isn't protected by a good closed tank, less fruits can be expected. And what is the tank made of? Saddha, Pasada, metta, Sila, intention for own and others independency.

2020 May 29 06:36:24
Johann: A blessed Siladay all who are doing it today

2020 May 28 19:24:28
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 28 18:32:00
Moritz: Upgrade to SMF 2.0.17 has been completed. Everything running smooth for everybody?

2020 May 23 06:43:43
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 22 21:09:34
Johann: May all still continue to spend a blessed New moon Uposatha till break on of a new day (of course good to continue without break). Mudita

2020 May 21 20:16:55
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 21 19:30:50
Johann: Nothing more a blessing as to do not cling to a specific Nikaya, since one can easy take the opportunity of doing theUposatha often two days a new. May all always make the best of given possibilities.

2020 May 20 21:19:41
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 20 20:44:31
Cheav Villa: May Bhante get well soon.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 20 20:43:13
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 14:55:14
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 18 12:17:04
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 21:21:28
Johann: Nyom Sophorn

2020 May 17 07:36:11
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 17 07:14:16
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 17 06:01:03
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2020 May 16 20:42:01
Johann: Bhante

2020 May 15 20:13:51
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 15 19:17:25
Johann: A blessed Siladay ending for those who keep(ed) it today.

2020 May 14 09:09:08
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 14 06:17:12
Johann: A bl3ssed Sila-day those observing it today.

2020 May 12 21:00:24
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 12 19:10:56
Johann: May no one ever, even a moment, forget: "Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven, lordship over all worlds:    the fruit of stream-entry    excels them."

2020 May 10 15:27:11
Depabhasadhamma: Thank you Johann

2020 May 10 15:26:00
Johann: "stand", taking, holding a stand makes it possible more understandable and fits better to it.

2020 May 10 15:24:35
Johann: Welcome Depabasadhamma, Atma will open a topic on it.

2020 May 10 15:04:51
Depabhasadhamma: I am in need of assistance. I am writing a paper about the Three Marks of Existence. I understand the three marks, however, I am befuddled by the meaning and use of the word "existence." Is this English word the translation of the Pali word thiti? Does the word "existence" imply life, living, consci

2020 May 09 21:15:38
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:48:57
Johann: Apsara in Pali: accharā, translation actually "A Whoo!"

2020 May 09 20:45:38
Johann: "...“Then take joy, Nanda. Take joy! I am your guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs.”..."

2020 May 09 20:45:17
Johann: "“What do you think, Nanda? Which is lovelier, better looking, more charming: the Sakyan girl, the envy of the countryside, or these 500 dove-footed nymphs?”..."

2020 May 09 20:43:26
Johann: There was a Bhikkhu "who got an email from an ex-co-dweller" and thought he will return to lower life, Nyom: Nanda Sutta

2020 May 09 20:35:41
Johann: It's actually just about the clothes, since his livemode is already a great Samaneras one.

2020 May 09 20:33:48
Cheav Villa: Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana never heard about the Bhuddha promised..  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 20:33:17
Johann: Till end of Vassa maybe?

2020 May 09 20:25:18
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_ Should try an ordination which in 7days.  _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 20:16:21
Johann: Apsara (dove feet Devatas).

2020 May 09 20:13:19
Johann: Temporary ordination is pretty normal, 3 days, a month, a Vassa... and not to forget that the Buddha promised union with the Asparas, which are beyond being compareable to others...

2020 May 09 19:25:54
Moritz: No no, I really prefer to be a householder, even though not having a house at the moment. I am not much inclined towards nekkhamma...  ^-^
... even though already doing some nekkhamma now, but not hoping to do so for the long term....

2020 May 09 19:24:05
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 09 19:08:20
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 09 19:00:58
Johann: When not working he is already used to where his beige light clean cloth, morning, noon, evening and already good organized.

2020 May 09 18:52:05
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 09 18:39:04
Johann: Nyom has his working dress and his light formal dress. White he might have possible to much troubles, so better to convince him toward robes.  :)

2020 May 09 17:38:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ Master Moritz should wear white clothes.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 May 07 15:18:07
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 10:33:24
Johann: Householder clothes are really no more proper for Upasaka Khemadasa.... good to take him fear of the robes

2020 May 07 10:21:10
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 May 07 10:19:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 07 06:02:32
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 07 05:46:38
Johann: Sadhu

2020 May 07 03:25:02
Khemakumara: May it be a path-and fruitful vesak Uposatha

2020 May 06 16:07:14
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 06 16:02:35
Johann: A blessed Vesaka Puja all, today and tomorrow, in reflection the goodness and qualities of the Sublime Buddha.

2020 May 04 21:25:10
Johann: followed by another overload by huawei-search engines... fixed

2020 May 04 20:31:45
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 04 20:25:53
Johann: A MS search engine (Bing) had overloaded the server capacity and might had caused the page not to be reached, but a cave-programmer quickly solved the issue, becoming aware of it. Sadhu

2020 May 03 21:13:46
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante Ariyadhammika _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 20:32:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 19:15:52
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2020 May 03 15:01:43
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 May 03 12:53:08
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 May 03 12:07:17
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 May 03 12:00:57
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 May 03 09:39:36
Johann: ...and the snake hunts the mice...

2020 May 03 09:11:20
Johann: Dwelling like Devas under Devas, peaceful, respectful, careful, harmless

2020 Apr 30 10:05:08
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:15:43
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 29 21:08:53
Johann: May all spend a meritful end of Sila-day, those who taking on it today, and maybe continue with those doing so tomorrow.

2020 Apr 29 20:09:39
Johann: Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 29 20:07:29
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:26:31
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa

2020 Apr 26 20:23:57
Cheav Villa: and Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Apr 26 20:23:33
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:30
Moritz: Bang Villa _/\_

2020 Apr 26 19:56:25
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 08:18:19
Cheav Villa: _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 26 07:18:02
Johann: Ādīnava , អដីនវ, As one of ten perceptions: AN 10.60

2020 Apr 26 07:09:32
Johann: May Dukkha be visible for all, so to stay on the path  that leads beyond and liberation.

2020 Apr 25 16:57:34
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 25 15:54:00
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 23 18:41:59
Johann: Sadhu for care to report and assist

2020 Apr 23 18:39:44
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_ I kana now not get notification.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Apr 23 15:04:07
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Apr 23 13:45:57
Khemakumara: Upāsikā

2020 Apr 22 11:17:56
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2020 Apr 22 06:38:01
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2020 Apr 22 05:45:37
Khemakumara: karuṇā, corona? which one prefers?   may it a fruit- and pathful Uposatha!

2020 Apr 21 19:53:51
Johann: If Nyom likes to use Atmas tablet and Sim, just pick it up at any time.

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[Buddha]

Author Topic: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels  (Read 567 times)

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Offline Danilo

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Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« on: February 05, 2020, 10:32:01 AM »
Bhante Johann's posts often give hints regarding aspects of the homeless life under the gems and the transition from householder to homeless. Sometimes those hints bring me some doubts here and there, so I thought to create a topic in order to clarify these doubts making straightfoward questions as they may appear. The topic may be useful for those who, like me, wonder if they could bear the homeless life.

The first doubt which I can remember right now is: Bhante Johann wrote once (in the BSE and here ), something like; less experinced bhikkhus are suppose to be under the guidance of senior bhikkhus, but in the topic Share of merits on a dhammic walkabout he wrote "It's the nature of wandering monks to not be traceable." when refering to Bhante Khemakumara, who seems to have gone forth only 18 months (One year after having left home and stand, one year living the holly life. ). Isn't suppose a junior bhikkhu do not stay alone?

The second doubt: The pictures I've seem from Bhante Johann and Bhante Khemakumara are all taken in caves or open air. On the other side, I often hear or read that bhikkkus reside in monasteries. It's inappopriate for them to reside in monasteries? If it is, what is the role of monasteries then?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 01:06:28 AM by Danilo »

Offline Johann

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Re: Homeless life under the Tripple Jewels
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2020, 11:10:10 AM »
* Johann : Sadhu for the questions. It's because asking (those knowing) that one gains understanding. Atma, Nyom Danilo , does not really know whether he just likes to leave it as open question for everyone to be taken on, or if he likes to address a certain person, group,... If wishing to adress someone, good to approach direct and ask him/them.(Just to inform, Bhante Khemakumara has not taken/be given full ordination and isn't an accepted Bhikkhu within the Sangha, but trains "just" as Pabbajito (homeless under the gems, "Samanera")

Atma thinks that the questin is also of much practical interest for Nyom Ebo ( saddhamma ) here.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 11:58:02 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

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Re: Homeless life under the Tripple Jewels
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2020, 10:51:11 AM »
* Johann : Sadhu for the questions. It's because asking (those knowing) that one gains understanding. Atma, Nyom Danilo , does not really know whether he just likes to leave it as open question for everyone to be taken on, or if he likes to address a certain person, group,... If wishing to adress someone, good to approach direct and ask him/them.(Just to inform, Bhante Khemakumara has not taken/be given full ordination and isn't an accepted Bhikkhu within the Sangha, but trains "just" as Pabbajito (homeless under the gems, "Samanera")

Atma thinks that the questin is also of much practical interest for Nyom Ebo ( saddhamma ) here.

Bhante Johann,
The questions were addressed to you and/or anyone who have undertook the homeless life and agree with your posts.
And now that Bhante have added a new information (a Pabbajito is a outsider), I have a new question: Are full ordained bhikkhus also homeless/waderers? Their lifestyles differ somehow?

Offline Johann

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Re: Homeless life under the Tripple Jewels
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2020, 11:59:58 AM »
Atma will try to give a proper answer, which clears up doubts, over the day, Nyom Danilo and at the same times askes Bhante Ariyadhammika for leave here, as well as for correcting and adding things, out of compassion.

Just short: a Pabbajito under the Tripple Gems isn't generally an "outsider", but "just a homeless (one having left stand under the Gems). Maybe Nyom meant that he isn't a conventional member of the Bhikkhu Sangha, at least not full accepted.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: Homeless life under the Tripple Jewels
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2020, 06:47:30 PM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Ven. members of the Sangha,
Ven. Fellows,

Upasaka, Upasika

honorable Buddhaparisda,

As above to be seen, Upasaka Danilo raised questions about how dependency (on preceptor, teacher) has to be understood for Bhikkhus and homeless under the Gems, how those homeless are organized in their dependencies, ending of dependencies and certain "freedoms" of obligatory dependencies.

My person takes leave to try to explain this situation for possible satisfaction. May the Venerables, out of compassion, correct possible misunderstood things and add needed so that the teachings of the Sublime Buddha may be not transported incorrect.

 _/\_ - Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -   _/\_

Right from the beginning my person likes to mention that most in regard of ordination and dependency can be found and readed in the Mahavagga of the Vinayapitaka .

To beginn with dependence on preceptor (Saddhivihārika, "on faith/trust with one dweller") and/or teacher (Ācariya "One knowing the good way of life", teacher).

Bhikkhus are supposed to live in dependency to make not only prosperty in Dhamma secure but also to maintain the quality of the Sangha and keep the reputation of the Gems best possible alive.
Since even Noble ones would not easy know all protocols of behaviour layed down by the Buddha for his near heirs, teaching by word and also in action in daily life was chosen to be required by the Sublime Buddha.

The Sublime Buddha ordered a minimum time of dependency of five years for one who can grasp the requirements for release from dependency, and even no release from dependency for someone who doesn't grasp the requirments.

The requirements to gain release from dependency are actually not only to have gained the inner and outer qualities of an Arahat (asekha) but also proper knowledge and understanding of the Vinayas rules.

A Bhikkhu matching this Qualities can gain release from dependency: walk on alone.

Those criterias are found in detail in the Nissayamuccanakakathā

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.I.53.4) Then the Blessed One, having stayed at Dakkhiṇāgiri for as long as he liked, came back to Rājagaha. He addressed Ven. Ānanda: “Why did the Tathāgata set out on a walking tour toward Dakkhiṇāgiri with a small group of monks?”

Then Ven. Ānanda reported the matter to the Blessed One. Then the Blessed One, having given a Dhamma talk with regard to this cause, to this incident, addressed the monks:

“Monks, I allow an experienced, competent monk to live five years in dependence, and an inexperienced one all his life.”

(Mv.I.53.5) [116] “Endowed with five qualities, a monk should not live independently (of a preceptor or teacher).[1]

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training.

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training.

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training.

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of release of one beyond training.

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of knowledge and vision of release of one beyond training.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He is endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training.

“He is endowed with the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training.

“He is endowed with the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training.

“He is endowed with the aggregate of release of one beyond training.

“He is endowed with the aggregate of knowledge and vision of release of one beyond training.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.

(Mv.I.53.6) “Endowed with five further qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“He is without conviction, without a sense of shame, without compunction, lazy, and of muddled mindfulness.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He has conviction, a sense of shame, compunction, his persistence is aroused, and his mindfulness established.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.

(Mv.I.53.7) “Endowed with five further qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“He is one who, in terms of heightened virtue, is defective in his virtue. He is one who, in terms of heightened conduct, is defective in his conduct. He is one who, in terms of higher views, is defective in his views. He is not learned. He is undiscerning.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He is one who, in terms of heightened virtue, is not defective in his virtue. He is one who, in terms of heightened conduct, is not defective in his conduct. He is one who, in terms of higher views, is not defective in his views. He is learned. He is discerning.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.

(Mv.I.53.8 ) “Endowed with five further qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“He does not know what is an offense. He does not know what is not an offense. He does not know what is a light offense. He does not know what is a heavy offense. Both Pāṭimokkhas, in detail, have not been properly handed down to him, have not been properly explicated, have not been properly ‘revolved’ (in terms of the ‘wheels’), have not been properly judged, clause by clause, letter by letter.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He knows what is an offense.He knows what is not an offense. He knows what is a light offense.He knows what is a heavy offense. Both Pāṭimokkhas, in detail, have been properly handed down to him, properly explicated, properly ‘revolved,’ properly judged, clause by clause, letter by letter.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.

(Mv.I.53.9) “Endowed with five further qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“He does not know what is an offense. He does not know what is not an offense. He does not know what is a light offense. He does not know what is a heavy offense. He has fewer than five rains.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with five qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He knows what is an offense. He knows what is not an offense. He knows what is a light offense. He knows what is a heavy offense. He has five rains or more.

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk may live independently.”

(Mv.I.53.10) [117] “Endowed with six qualities, a monk should not live independently (of a preceptor or teacher).

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training.

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training.

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training.

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of release of one beyond training.

“He is not endowed with the aggregate of knowledge and vision of release of one beyond training.

“He has fewer than five rains.

“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with six qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He is endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training. He is endowed with the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training. He is endowed with the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training. He is endowed with the aggregate of release of one beyond training. He is endowed with the aggregate of knowledge and vision of release of one beyond training. He has five rains or more.

“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk may live independently.

(Mv.I.53.11) “Endowed with six further qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“He is without conviction, without a sense of shame, without compunction, lazy, and of muddled mindfulness. He has fewer than five rains.

“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with six qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He has conviction, a sense of shame, compunction, his persistence is aroused, and his mindfulness established. He has five rains or more.

“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk may live independently.

(Mv.I.53.12) “Endowed with six further qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“He is one who, in terms of heightened virtue, is defective in his virtue. He is one who, in terms of heightened conduct, is defective in his conduct. He is one who, in terms of higher views, is defective in his views. He is not learned. He is undiscerning. He has fewer than five rains.

“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with six qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He is one who, in terms of heightened virtue, is not defective in his virtue. He is one who, in terms of heightened conduct, is not defective in his conduct. He is one who, in terms of higher views, is not defective in his views. He is learned. He is discerning. He has five rains or more.

“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk may live independently.

(Mv.I.53.13) “Endowed with six further qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“He does not know what is an offense. He does not know what is not an offense. He does not know what is a light offense. He does not know what is a heavy offense. Both Pāṭimokkhas, in detail, have not been properly handed down to him, have not been properly explicated, have not been properly ‘revolved’ (in terms of the ‘wheels’), have not been properly judged, clause by clause, letter by letter. He has fewer than five rains.

“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk should not live independently.

“Endowed with six qualities, a monk may live independently.

“He knows what is an offense. He knows what is not an offense. He knows what is a light offense. He knows what is a heavy offense. Both Pāṭimokkhas, in detail, have been properly handed down to him, properly explicated, properly ‘revolved,’ properly judged, clause by clause, letter by letter. He has five rains or more.

“Endowed with these six qualities, a monk may live independently.

There are some sets which are formulated in a very ideal frame and others easier to judge for outward.
Since it hard to judge cases of spiritual attainments, especially for possibly Sanghas without recognised Noble Elders, certain Sanghas, Nikayas, at least within the commentaries, had developed certain sets of required knowledge of teaching (able to recite certain things) as main criteria aside of being free of certain faults to give release from dependency.

(My person has to tell that he does not know whether there is such as a formal request or formal declaration transaction for release, aside of gaining release/leave by ones preceptor/teacher).

So one not having the qualities of an Arahat (has not completed the training) is ecpected to live in dependency.

Even so there are cases where someone might go on alone. Such case are if a Bhikkhu has currently no Nissaya (dependency) out of what ever reason and seeks for one.
Or when a Bhikkhu has more success in progress dwelling alone meditating in the wild, he may also livewithout dependency. In all those special cases he should how ever dwell with the wish that a person proper to ask for dependency may come along to ask for it and/or when met, ask for dependency.

The choice of ones Nissaya is of course a voluntary, to ask for, to leave (if resonable). So too the well giving of Nissaya, for one allowed to do such, is liberal.

Since such as finding ones trusted teacher(s) isn't that easy and the Sangha isn't anymore just full of many Arahats, it's understandable that monks gather since longer in monasteries to fulfill the requirement of dependency.

The way of going on after having complete the training, if remembering a famous wish of the Buddha toward his Sangha of Arahats, is that they should go on in all directions, not even two walking the same way, to teach the Dhamma.

So the today's structure of great networks of "organized" monasteries can be surely traced back to the requirement of dependency and as lesser Arahats arise, lesser movements or single wandering Bhikkhus are naturally, as long as they respect the Vinaya.

As for the secound question: Are full ordained bhikkhus also homeless/wanderers?

The first part may already explain lot of it. One isn't asked to wander around. Many ideals, especially in the west, are drawn from the sample of Ven. Kassapa MahaThera who has been said that he never came back to a place a second time. It's not a matter that blame because someone spends the whole life in one monastery is easy generally justified.

Homeless, ideal, does also not really mean the outwardly aspects, but the habit of not making the six senses and their objects to ones home, next to live from alms.

Atma will stop here temporary, so that Nyom may have the possibilities to deepen certain questions or give signs of the direction where things might be obstacles for release.

Readings:

Temporary exemption from dependence. Normally a junior bhikkhu is required to live in dependence under a mentor at all times. However, Mv.I.73 allows him not to take dependence when living in any of the following situations if no qualified bhikkhu is available as a mentor:

1. He is on a journey.
2. He is ill.
3. He is caring for an ill person who has requested his help (§).
4. He is living alone in the wilderness, meditating comfortably, intending to take dependence if a qualified mentor comes along.

The Commentary, in discussing these allowances, makes the following points:

A bhikkhu on a journey is said to have no mentor available if no qualified senior bhikkhu is traveling with him. In other words, the fact that he happens to pass by a monastery containing a qualified mentor does not mean that a mentor is available, and he is allowed to continue traveling without taking dependence. If, however, he spends the night in a place where he has taken dependence before, he should take dependence on the day of his arrival. If he reaches a place where he has never been before and plans to spend only two or three days, he need not take dependence; but if he plans to spend a week, he must. If the senior bhikkhu he requests dependence from says, "What's the use of taking dependence for only a week?" that exempts him from this requirement.

As for the bhikkhu living alone in the wilderness, the Commentary says that "meditating comfortably" means that his tranquility and insight meditation are going smoothly. For some reason, though, it says that this allowance applies only to bhikkhus whose meditation is at a tender stage and might deteriorate if they were to leave the wilderness; if a bhikkhu has attained any of the noble attainments — beginning with stream-entry — he may not make use of this allowance. Why the Commentary limits the allowance in this way, it doesn't say.

At any rate, once the month before the Rains-residence (vassa) arrives and no suitable mentor appears, the junior bhikkhu must leave his wilderness abode and look for a place with a suitable mentor under whom he can take dependence for the Rains.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 07:35:21 PM by Johann »
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Offline Johann

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Re: Homeless life under the Tripple Jewels
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2020, 06:57:50 AM »
Does Nyom Danilo have any question till here?

In ideal form, after five years, a Bhikkhu should be a real homeless (one who does not take on a stand, does not maintain an own habitat, e.g. isn't bond, takes on, form, sound, smell... ideas).
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Re: Homeless life under the Tripple Jewels
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2020, 01:45:11 AM »
The asnwer was quite clarifying  _/\_

Does Nyom Danilo have any question till here?

Yes, in the topic [Q&A] How to ordain as a monk of the Buddha? . There is the following quote:

who's involved: first of all, you, with the right aspiration and perception and as for ordaining as Samanera a valid preceptor, as for ordaining as Bhikkhu, a chosen valid Nissaya (mentor/personal teacher), a valid preceptor, a valid Sangha of six valid Bhikkhus, and a valid place (Uposatha-place, within valid Sema/borders), and a valid Ordination - action.

If I understood correctly, this means that, aside of full ordination, it would also be required to look for someone else in order take the ten precepts and go forth as a Samanera? How a preceptor is different from a Nissaya(mentor/personal teacher)?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 02:09:46 AM by Danilo »

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Re: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2020, 09:13:04 PM »
Nyom Danilo ,

One needs to have a qualified Venerable Bhikkhu as preceptor to be able to make use of the stand as Sāmaṇera (or Pabbajito), yes.

There is, how ever, less specifically defined by the Sublime Buddha (following the Vinaya in regard of Sāmaṇera, but if seen as Pabbajito, many criteria would also apply, as my person would see it like that (like asking parents...). Many things, how ever, aren't asked by the ordaining Bhikkhus, who do so because there is a lack of formal transaction.

It's over all a great gray area, the Sāmaṇera, Pabbajito distinction, while acceptance as Bhikkhu is very clear. For example the matter of requirement of teacher isn't defined as well as duties to get one. They are "just" pound to the 10 Silas and would lose certain possibilities when broken the first. Usually the Sekhaya-rules are trained and to be observed and usually the underwent similar confession, reinstallation processes in exchange with their preceptor.
Actually they have a lot of "freedom" which also means less protection and are mostly very depending on the status of the Bhikkhus.
Although it appears as if outsider, they are part, "owned by" of the community of the Bhikkhus, thought on the inheritance regulation.

Different Sanghas and Nikayas treat them very difficult, some (common Mahanikaya merely like slaves) very risky, some with a lot of care, some try to avoid such ordinations, some prefer to stay Sāmaṇera as long as not sure to be able to keep the Bhikkhu-rules well.

Such as self-ordination isn't really mentioned. One, how ever, who poses to be a Bhikkhu, yet not ordained as such, out of wish for easy life under them, is forbidden to ever ordain.

Becoming homeless, leaving home, how ever, isn't a monopoly and it might be that someone isn't any more able to live a householder life, yet does not find a Sangha, a Bhikkhu. Shave ones head, taking on robes, searching for ones "kind", ones teacher, if one can stand it without making use of the Sanghas social network: there is no reason for critique, just think on Ven. Maha Kassapa and the many recluses who had ordained. More secure because not so much object of possible being suspended by not so wise is to gain the going forth as Sāmaṇera. Also the taking on of dhutanga-precepts doesn't really require formal acts, yet nevertheless it is usual to request them from dhutanga-monks.

The different between "ordination-teacher" (preceptor) and later teacher is simply this, while the first (where taking refuge and ask for going forth and the teacher doinggleading the ceremony) is obligatory. Commentaries speak of four kinds of Nissaya (dependency/techer/base): adding a "teacher of certain skill and a "dwell together teacher" to the first and distinguish in regard of duties a little.

See also: Mitschüler - Fellow pupil - 'សទ្ធិវិហារិក' Saddhivihārika

To have a Dhammic approach here (which kammical applies to lay people as well) in regard of homeless lonely wandering and preceptor duties:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Migajala Sutta: To Migajala

At Savatthi. Then Ven. Migajala went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A person living alone. A person living alone,' thus it is said. To what extent, lord, is one a person living alone, and to what extent is one a person living with a companion?"

"Migajala, there are forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing — and a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them. As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, delight arises. There being delight, he is impassioned. Being impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the fetter of delight is said to be a person living with a companion.

"There are sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body... ideas cognizable via the intellect — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing — and a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them. As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, delight arises. There being delight, he is impassioned. Being impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the fetter of delight is said to be a person living with a companion.

"A person living in this way — even if he frequents isolated forest & wilderness dwellings, with an unpopulated atmosphere, lying far from humanity, appropriate for seclusion — is still said to be living with a companion. Why is that? Because craving is his companion, and it has not been abandoned by him. Thus he is said to be a person living with a companion.

"Now, there are forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing — and a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being no delight, he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is not fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of delight is said to be a person living alone.

"There are sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body... ideas cognizable via the intellect — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing — and a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being no delight, he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is not fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of delight is said to be a person living alone.

"A person living in this way — even if he lives near a village, associating with monks & nuns, with male & female lay followers, with kings & royal ministers, with sectarians & their disciples — is still said to be living alone. A person living alone is said to be a monk. Why is that? Because craving is his companion, and it has been abandoned by him. Thus he is said to be a person living alone."

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

4. Bahukārasuttaṃ

Has done much

24. "Bhikkhus, these three persons have done much to a person. Which three? Bhikkhus, the person gone to whom this person takes refuge in the Enlightenment, in the Teaching and the Community of bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, the person gone to whom this person knows as it really is, this is unpleasant, this is the arising of unpleasantness, this is the cessation of unpleasantness and this is the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness.

"Again, bhikkhus, the person gone to whom, this person destroys desires, releases the mind and released through wisdom, here and now abides having realized. Bhikkhus, these three persons have done much to this person.

"Bhikkhus, it is not possible that these three persons could be thoroughly repaid with gratitude, by this person revering him, attending on him, clasping hands towards him and honouring him with robes, morsel food, dwellings and medicinal requisites."

 _/\_ Okasa Bhante Ariyadhammika ,

My person would rejoice if Bhante, out of compassion would critical prove and rebuke the told, if not right or not of benefit for progess, as well if Bhante would share his merits of investigation and how things are treated in his near Sanghas practically.

Especially in the west there is less aterial and work in regard of the situation as "Novice" and/or "homeless" shared, yet by far most of the monks are actually in this state in traditional countries.

Yet, aside of the "stand" and living frame of the Bhikkhus, it's the second kind of stand where living Arahat, aside of other Noble Ones above streamwinner can be found.
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Offline Danilo

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Re: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2020, 02:39:25 AM »
Becoming homeless, leaving home, how ever, isn't a monopoly and it might be that someone isn't any more able to live a householder life, yet does not find a Sangha, a Bhikkhu. Shave ones head, taking on robes, searching for ones "kind", ones teacher, if one can stand it without making use of the Sanghas social network: there is no reason for critique

What is the meaning of "making use of the Sanghas social network"?
If he shaves his own head and use robes, wouldn't people think he is a bhikkhu/samanera?

 _/\_
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 02:51:23 AM by Danilo »

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Re: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2020, 05:39:17 AM »
The "Sanghas social network" , Nyom Danilo , consists of dwellings, families (of supporter), honor, possession and Dhamma (incl. Vinaya) of which all can be also used for very worldly purposes, gain.

If one shaves his own head and uses robes, of course one could be perceived as ordained Monk (Bhikkhu) and one easily could be suspected as one "obtained Affiliation by thief" which is a serious deed, hindering to gain ordination a lifetime. But like with many conducts intention matters. Just think on Sāmaṇera who look like Bhikkhus. Outwardly they are recognised only by not wearing the double layer robe over the left sholder when wandering alone.

Here maybe the story of origin in regard of "One obtained Affiliation by thief":

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.I.62.1) [126] Now on that occasion there was a certain delicately nurtured son of an old (wealthy) family that had fallen on hard times. The thought occurred to him,

“I am delicately nurtured, incapable of acquiring unacquired property, or of making anything out of the property I have acquired.[2]

“By what strategy could I live pleasantly and not be put to difficulties?”

Then the thought occurred to him, “Now, these Sakyan-son monks are of pleasant virtue and conduct. Having eaten good meals, they lie down in beds sheltered from the wind.

“What if I were to prepare robes and a bowl for myself, shave my head & beard, to clothe myself in ochre robes, and then having gone to the monastery, live in affiliation with the monks?”

(Mv.I.62.2) So he prepared robes and a bowl for himself, shaved his head & beard, clothed himself in ochre robes, went to the monastery, and bowed down to the monks.

The monks said, “Friend, how many rains do you have?”

“Friends, what’s that — ‘how many rains’?”

“Then who is your preceptor, friend?”

“Friends, what’s that — a ‘preceptor’?”

The monks said to Ven. Upāli, “Come, friend Upāli, and question this one gone-forth.”

(Mv.I.62.3) So the delicately nurtured son of an old (wealthy) family that had fallen on hard times, being questioned by Ven. Upāli, reported the matter to him.

Ven, Upāli reported the matter to the monks.

The monks reported the matter to the Blessed One.

“A person in affiliation through theft, if unaccepted, is not to be given Acceptance. If accepted, he is to be expelled.

“One who has gone over (while a monk) to another religion, if unaccepted, is not to be given Acceptance. If accepted, he is to be expelled.”

One the other side one finds many cases in the Suttas where householder have their heads and take on the robes, desiring to ordain and even the process of ordination as monk requires to shave ones head and take on the robes first.
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Re: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2020, 09:40:15 AM »

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Or he might say: 'Whereas some honorable recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, continuously cause damage to seed and plant life — to plants propagated from roots, stems, joints, buddings, and seeds — the recluse Gotama abstains from damaging seed and plant life.'

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Therefore destroying a living plant — for instance, felling a tree, uprooting a flower, burning grass — is a Confession offence; as is picking fruit from a tree, a flower from a bush, etc. It is an offence of wrong-doing (dukka.ta) to damage or destroy fertile seeds or pips, or viable seedlings. (See Kappiya).

Bhante Johann, maybe the following question may be naive, but I have to ask.
I've already seen pictures of monks stepping on the grass and in Another soon arrival in the land of wonders there are pictures of you sitting on the grass. Isn't sitting and stepping on the grass causing damages to the grass somewhat?

 _/\_
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 09:48:50 AM by Danilo »

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Re: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2020, 10:42:32 AM »
Nyom Danilo , the question isn't naive. Sure one tries to avoid damage of plants, and usually stepping on grass doesn't cause damage when going mindful, sensible on touch, careful and barefoot.

One knows soon which parts and plants are able to carry a little and which would easy be damaged.

To cross a thorny thickness can be of course a huge test on ones patient, crossing a forest. In forests usually places to step on, without the need to step on young trees and other plants, can be found. Slowly, attentive, the eyes on the ground. Usually people haven't eyes very seldom on the groud, looking and searching for this or that.

The rule often leads to strange ideas like that lay-people are suggested by monks to clear the soil in monasteries or that they use Samanera to do such. Such is indeed a fault.

When there are paths, paths would be used, something one finds between the paddy fields most of the time. But of course there are areas where one needs to step on plants which can be usually be done by not breaking them. One get's a good feeling on touch and as long mindful, not much to worry. Sure such is different between single individuals. If not mindful, not looking where to step, not aware of touch, not only that one harms many, incl. animals, but also one self soon, also direct. It's usually no problem for a practicing forest monk to walk over areas with thorny plants without hurting himself or others.
Sure there might be cases of damages, but such would be then accidentally and without intention and carelessness.
When other things happen, that has mostly to do with not being carefull, mindful, lazy, in hurry, or turned outward to what ever sensual object. So stepping and looking somewhere else gives a lot of danger, for example.

In regard of sitting it's the same and use of matt or garment does also a good service in sharing the weight over a greater area.

Once Atma walked more then 1000 km through the land barefoot, still in white, pulling a hand cart all along. While there havn't been any hurt on the feets, the wheels had to be batched serial times.

Bhante, as Nyom mentioned pictures of him, is very heedful in this regard. One may person shared a story in such regard of him and reflections on those matters. Maybe Atma finds it again and then link it here.

Best to try it for oneself, to start to walk very minful and careful without shoes of which helps a lot to become careful as carelessness quickly can be very painful.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 10:53:20 AM by Johann »
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Re: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2020, 11:56:13 AM »
It's in German: Anzeigen von Anerkennung ungeschicker Handlungen (Bhante Khemakumara on his first visit as lay person, avoiding to use living plants to make a broom, later rejected to use plant parts Nyom Chanroth who offered him voluntary taken from living plants, after seeing his burdnen to find death bamboo gras, , getting known that he avoids harming of plants, at first place, and after getting clear that he wasn't involved in his undertaking used them finally abounded to try to make a broom.)
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Re: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2020, 10:30:56 AM »
The rule often leads to strange ideas like that lay-people are suggested by monks to clear the soil in monasteries or that they use Samanera to do such. Such is indeed a fault.

Bhante Johann, I've came across a monastic which consented with the destruction of vegetation in order to build huts. When I asked him why that wasn't a transgression, he told me to research the expression "Kappiya-vohāra " on the "Buddhist Monastic Code" by Bhante Ṭhānissaro. The following is the definition of the expression:

a proper expression, i.e., a way of expressing a hint or desire allowable in the context of a rule where an outright command would be a breach of the rule.
 

I wonder why there is a pali expression to "bypass" the Vinaya's rules and it doesn't seem to be treated as a transgression per se in the BMC (here the expression is used in the context of handle money/trades though):
Quote from: Buddhist Monastic Code by Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu
The most he is allowed to do when receiving a check is to hand it over to his steward—being careful not to say anything that would violate the etiquette of kappiya vohāra (“wording things right”)

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Re: Homeless life under the Triple Jewels
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2020, 11:26:15 AM »
Nyom Danilo , this well known, and often well learned "magic formulars" which are assumed to be a "leo" (void place, hiddding place) of akusala, are a tricky pit fall.

As far as to see it is important that the right wording has to come after the right attention. And it's surely not thought that right wording would make wrong possible.

To bring a sample: There might be the case that a monk sees a branch of a tree looking as if it would soon fall down over a hut. Yet he might express his observation. A lay person might hear it and thinking himself takes action, goes on to cut the branch.

In another case a monk might have observed the same and now looks after how to suggest someone to do what he likes to be done, to cut off the branch. As we know: approve of akusala, telling others to undertake not well, is as well akusala and of course wouldn't release from remorse, wouldn't release from it's effects and will therefore always a hindrance in the practice.

Then there is also the case where there are "servants" trained, trained in a way that they follow orders which are given as codes. It's possible not necessary to explain that such isn't the idea behind and doesn't distinguished a monk from a king. Have you ever seen a King acting unskilful himself? It's even seldom that he would give direct orders.

So as far as seen, those "magic words" are actually a additional protection to the right intention, the harmless and kusala intention. Why? Because even if not thought to urge someone to believe to have a task to do something which isn't really praisworthy, wrong words, or the way someone has told something, might lead to remorse.

If taking it in a way like it is sadly usually, it has actually no bottom for foolish actions, actions which are not proper for recluses, actions which remind more on hypocritical Brahmans and lords.

So in regard of this my person would encourage simply to let go of things which involve such things. Simply no money is actually easy, if not even a slight thought on such, taking it as sample. What my person simply does not receive, even give it any attention, how could it burden me any way further?

Sometimes giver would even argue with allowances that one would possible take on it. "but if...". Sometimes there are occasion where Dhamma can be caught, sometimes one best simply ignores it.

With the best "clever" Vinaya-knowledge one is sure to come into the "devils kitchen" anyway. Still desire to build this and that and not living like a beggar, having objectives in the world, this hero will become the enemy he is fighting.

There are allowances to ease and broaden the way for proper smooth dwelling and walk on the path but they are not thought to pattern a path objected in the world. Path to escape are laid out, not path to conquer and develop homes in the world.

Not easy, but possible and actually releasing.

For those who do not turn away from "magic formula" speaker and metta-sender, currently up in clearing the field and forest for another medi-center... may they soon meet the disciples of the Buddha andd gain faith there where it has worth to give into.

At least, how ever, should one come across "Samaneras", practicing eager according the scriptual Vinaya, it's nevertheless a matter to praise and will nevertheless preserve the honor of the Juwels.

Much potential for Vipassana here exact in all those special allowances areas. The Sublime Buddha was for sure not a hypocritical cheater neither a strategical foreign affairs politician who simply wished to keep a shine. Doing unskillful for even the sake of the path isn't path leading and so called "proper means" do not justify them either. How ever, Vinaya isn't thought for people with view into the mind but a lane for wordlings to arrive there, at real virtue.

Again: those "magic fomulas", have to be based on right resolve. If a another resolve leads to the use of "magic fomulas" those are actually a "shoot into the own knee". Like all laws in a corrupt land are simply used to act corrupt, rules in a corrupt mind act likewise destructive for oneself and all around.

A story of Venerable Ajahn Chah comes to mind, where people find his actions so praisworthy, where a receives money on a garment at first place and then let's it back on the place and leaves: Wishing to do the giver a favor and then looking for no troubles while at the same time sure that others will look good after it, or what's the point here? Equanimity-show? Better to distinguish of good and bad, proper and improper and also give signs so that others could understand more rightly.

Does this satisfy Nyom or would he need some samples to get it more understood (which of course have most impact if live and not just stories).

There are many such topics to be found like this: Killing in the name of... becoming , in larger or smaller form. Last was a large medicenter-buliding project of millions and a "engaged section": "we plant already 2000 trees a year" advertising. That all is based on those "magical formulas".

Although my person speaks always very direct, he is more than delight if he would get corrected if something doesn't fit to the path and like always, not just as a matter of simply politeness, would be  happy if maybe Bhante Ariyadhammika would add things, out of compassion, which might be unseen or not known yet.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 07:52:21 AM by Danilo »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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