Giving care

[blazer]

Ven. Johann,
i think thinking about gratitude is bringing some results.
Reflections on gratitude pertain not only to this very case, but also on many other cases, included all old bad-ended relations. So it has been quite stressful but maybe i've arrived to a more or less firm point now.

Sightly improvements taken place the last few days. Possibly things will further improve.
For now i have decided to give support, as i've seen it has been appreciated.
It looks to me good fruits have been produced, for me and for others.

[Johann]

Ven. Johann,
i think thinking about gratitude is bringing some results.
Reflections on gratitude pertain not only to this very case, but also on many other cases, included all old bad-ended relations. So it has been quite stressful but maybe i've arrived to a more or less firm point now.

Sightly improvements taken place the last few days. Possibly things will further improve.
For now i have decided to give support, as i've seen it has been appreciated.
It looks to me good fruits have been produced, for me and for others.

muditā

[blazer]

One doesn't owe debts to harm and deprive, but to giving, Nyom blazer . Parents give what one desires, sphere, 'flesh', bear much, much burden and could have it removed like a pest sucking blood uninvited or occupy food, place...

Nobody did that for one other then once parents. It's million times higher that human-being are killed by their parents, often right after they get aware of possible burden with the guest.

How many beings did Nyom feed, who started with making burdens when arriving till today? Less would even give it a thought how many times a mother feed them, carried... don't remember, know, what parents sacrificed for huge time.

It's so crazy that in the West people often feel more devoted to pets (although they have no intentional goodness at all, are just addicted and easy to control) than to their parents.

Why? Because not seeing sacrifices of giving but just approve of what their can control, make their own "don't hurt" them.

It's important to be clear that one wished to come, arrive, take place. Nobody forced one to take birth.

Like here. Many took and take care, provide for all that one can take on existance in this more refined realm.

Again: good to try to list, possible ask, of how much and what was sacrificed. Often people are not aware of the "God" around, and when sometimes appearing, it seems like as having come down to harm.

But that's also an issue for parents, to know that their guests, children, are not their own, but just guest one takes care liberal. It happen always that when there is much love, much desire to control, that harm arises naturally.

And again, with gratitude, seeing the sacrifices one received, as child even demanded, forced (by the power of illusion, love), one can tell such, tell to now wishing to go on, and ask whether there would be an open debt one could solve (that's what one does when asking for going forth).

As it is a heavy thing that parents let go of the fruit of so many sacrifices, in traditional countries, to good remember the goodness of parents and leave proper, leaving ceremony might be 3h for the quite shorter ordination.

Modern people, so influenced by wrong view, leave and miss to solve the base: right view.

And as it's also a matter of metta, it's as well a giving freedom from one's side, letting go of both, wishing to nurish on and to control (making his own), knowing the goodness done well.

Ven. Johann,
i have four points

1) some weeks ago i've read a text ( a sutta if i'm not wrong ) that a son can find his debt extinguished after proper conduct. Is it right?

2) many people take a pet for the reason you told, not only to replace parents but to replace humans, having someone who "doesn't hurt". Personally i've decided to not make childs because of the state of this world. Anyway, sons behavior can be understood once having seen how parents behave with their childs, in many cases, expecially mothers as i've seen. There are true monsters out there, who should think far more before reproducing: the drawback is probably an unloving son, at the very least.
I gave much, much help to people, sons, destroyed by their horrible parents. Parents who deserve to go in jail or to a mental health house for what they have done, caused damages, dishonesty, falsehood when called to respond.

3) I understand the merits of parents. But obviously there should be a line, not right that one makes a child to enslave him or to be free to get control of another's life in more or less sick ways. So it looks to me a parent can lose all of his merits.

4) i'm not sure about what "too much love" means, but it looks to me that often this "love", at least a good part, is just a kind of narcissistic or egoistic perversion.


 

[Johann]

Nobody asked anybody to come, and nobody took care, even if seeming little, more then one's parents.

Maybe easier to grasp: Some time ago, even in regard of later relation, a devoted told that his wife gives/gave just out of defilements, greed, into their relation, and because of this, he decided, there is no need of gratitude and he could do as he likes.

He just forgets that his part to it is/was likewise just out of defilements, greed, thinks somehow that he has a right on relaying, maybe thinking his part is a pure.

Again, it's neither required to uphold and maintain relations, if seeing really harmful for oneself or others, but either maintaining, or leaving a relation, requires gratitude. As long as not understand, as long as not repaying the part of goodness, by denying goodness and proper obligation, one is not capable to leave.

to 1: There is a way to repay once parents, yes: Kataññu Suttas: Gratitude

to 2: Everybody, not in the Noble domain, nourished and seeks relation, seeks for children, off-springs does such only because of greed, craving, because of ignorance. Samsara cannot be end by "birth-regulation" or by "children/raising-education-systems". They are then just slaves of societies, state slaves, with the same issue like with parents.

to 3: Every being, in every relation, is always free to act liberal or selfish, kind or evil. That is why there are debts, other than if it would be fixed destiny or controlled by a creator God.

to 4: always pure selfish, aside of the eight people, Noble Ones, and only Arahats are real giver, Bhagavato. With finding into the Buddhaparisa, giving into any selfish relation, or after children, has end.

So didn't good blazer , notout of pure selfishness, demand and nothing but desires, not only take birth by went into what ever other relation?

That being so, the debt thing, works therefore even more binding and unrepayable, once getting in relation with the parents in Dhamma.

Developing gratitude toward oneself and all others, mudita, is very needed, not only for gaining any Jhana (the Brahma viharas), but also to gain path and fruits.

How can one develop mudita, appreciation toward all beings, frim right view, if not capable to feel obligated toward clear giving?

And yes, althought most, even if claiming to be advanced yogis, are incapable of right thinking, even the happiness and gains of most evil seeming people, is required to appreciate, to be able to leave upwardly.

Right view, gratitude, is so unknown in modern world, so denied that it's most difficult to get a real base of Samvega.

There is another of the less teachings in western language, ggod to seek for, read and reflect: https://sangham.net/en/lib/authors/wijesinghe/gratitude

There is hardly any modern/western teacher understanding and teaching right view, so understandable that hardly ever to meet the basic of the Dhamma.

[blazer]

As for relations of goodness, like parents or others who gave one sphere to become, conditions, means, skills... actually everything, one could carry them a whole live on ones shoulders, massage, wash, feed, give them all wealth, one still would not be able to repay it, yet if one turns one's stingy parents to generosity, unvirtuose, to virtue, unwise toward wisdom... such, aside of the common duties, would be a child of real gratitude, did the best to repay their goodness.

That's a great opportunity and good if not missing any change to act grateful as possible.

Ven. Johann,
for the point 1, if so is the answer, may i ask why didn't you at time mention the possibility, actually a useful notion, of extinguishment, which could have already happend or eventually possible?
Thank you

 

[Johann]

As for relations of goodness, like parents or others who gave one sphere to become, conditions, means, skills... actually everything, one could carry them a whole live on ones shoulders, massage, wash, feed, give them all wealth, one still would not be able to repay it, yet if one turns one's stingy parents to generosity, unvirtuose, to virtue, unwise toward wisdom... such, aside of the common duties, would be a child of real gratitude, did the best to repay their goodness.

That's a great opportunity and good if not missing any change to act grateful as possible.

Ven. Johann,
for the point 1, if so is the answer, may i ask why didn't you at time mention the possibility, actually a useful notion, of extinguishment, which could have already happend or eventually possible?
Thank you

 

Atma is not sure of what's Nyom asked in detail, but guessing that it's now lesser about the fact of duty, debt, but if it can be repayed. Guessing that it's reasked because not repeating the once told.

Aside of that in the mentioned in the linked Sutta, which is not always possible, going after the holly life, if gotten leave, releases form all debts, is highest gratitude, unbiased toward all. Still, when there is relay, it required to do ones duties.

Only an Arahat is without debts and duties, acts simply liberal.

[blazer]

As for relations of goodness, like parents or others who gave one sphere to become, conditions, means, skills... actually everything, one could carry them a whole live on ones shoulders, massage, wash, feed, give them all wealth, one still would not be able to repay it, yet if one turns one's stingy parents to generosity, unvirtuose, to virtue, unwise toward wisdom... such, aside of the common duties, would be a child of real gratitude, did the best to repay their goodness.

That's a great opportunity and good if not missing any change to act grateful as possible.

Ven. Johann,
for the point 1, if so is the answer, may i ask why didn't you at time mention the possibility, actually a useful notion, of extinguishment, which could have already happend or eventually possible?
Thank you

 

Atma is not sure of what's Nyom asked in detail, but guessing that it's now lesser about the fact of duty, debt, but if it can be repayed. Guessing that it's reasked because not repeating the once told.

Aside of that in the mentioned in the linked Sutta, which is not always possible, going after the holly life, if gotten leave, releases form all debts, is highest gratitude, unbiased toward all. Still, when there is relay, it required to do ones duties.

Only an Arahat is without debts and duties, acts simply liberal.

Ven. Johann,
good to know ones releases from all debts once going to the holy life. Could you please give sutta reference?

Your guessing is correct, even if it's not the main reason.
The question arose because i considered this extinguishment point relevant about the topic on parents debt and giving care, expecially in my situation.
The reason is, my toughts, speech and action are influenced by what i read. I can consider it a missing information, which actually drives my behavior.
For example, i could have tought "based on my life and reasoning, i've already extinguished my debt".

Because it is not the first time i feel in this situation of missing informations, i respectfully ask if in such cases there is a purpose or it is just an "error", seen as incomplete answer or as not having reported something relevant ( which my person considers such ).
Thank you

 

[Johann]

Maybe Nyom blazer likes to make use of delta-chat, since voice might be sometimes better to avoid misunderstandings or missing points.

good to know ones releases from all debts once going to the holy life. Could you please give sutta reference?

Going for higher, letting sensual pleasures behind, harmful behind, releases from lower bonds, yes. Yet, 1. not simply by starting the higher task, is one already free from all debts. Again, only and Arahat is free from debts, while one in training still does on debts (if good, just toward the Gems).

2. As debts toward parents are very high, first: the Buddha required to having parents permission to go for higher , second: allowed to care for parents even if gone forth, if required.

[Moritz]

I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 

[Johann]

mudita

[blazer]

I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 

Master Moritz,
i'm very happy it helped you!
Mudita 

Ven Johann,
possibly i'm missing something, but it is very important for me to understand so i have to ask further: how can a chat help in some cases?
After reflection i tought it is possible to repay a debt with parents, and looking for info i've found that the extinction is possible. But i feel it is not good to work with incomplete informations, or better, with informations which miss important points.
So it looks to me it was an error or it was for a purpose, i cannot find other reasons, also because i'm "expecting" perfection in answers or something similar.
May Ven Johann please clarify.
Thank you

 


 

[Johann]

I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 

Master Moritz,
i'm very happy it helped you!
Mudita 

Ven Johann,
possibly i'm missing something, but it is very important for me to understand so i have to ask further: how can a chat help in some cases?
After reflection i tought it is possible to repay a debt with parents, and looking for info i've found that the extinction is possible. But i feel it is not good to work with incomplete informations, or better, with informations which miss important points.
So it looks to me it was an error or it was for a purpose, i cannot find other reasons, also because i'm "expecting" perfection in answers or something similar.
May Ven Johann please clarify.
Thank you

 

Using delta-chat (via email) allows voice, Nyom. That's maybe better. (just install app, use enail account and write to samana.johann@sangham.net or create a group, maybe adding Nyom Moritz. as well, as groups are always better then just two.)

[blazer]

I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 

Master Moritz,
i'm very happy it helped you!
Mudita 

Ven Johann,
possibly i'm missing something, but it is very important for me to understand so i have to ask further: how can a chat help in some cases?
After reflection i tought it is possible to repay a debt with parents, and looking for info i've found that the extinction is possible. But i feel it is not good to work with incomplete informations, or better, with informations which miss important points.
So it looks to me it was an error or it was for a purpose, i cannot find other reasons, also because i'm "expecting" perfection in answers or something similar.
May Ven Johann please clarify.
Thank you

 

Using delta-chat (via email) allows voice, Nyom. That's maybe better. (just install app, use enail account and write to samana.johann@sangham.net or create a group, maybe adding Nyom Moritz. as well, as groups are always better then just two.)

Ven. Johann,
thanks for your answer. Of course it can be of some help (ven if i prefer to have your words written for better understanding, multiple reading), but still i don't understand why that information was missing. It looks to me it was not a problem of chat/voice availability, the info was just missing.
Please help me to understand.
Thank you

 

[Johann]

I want to thank Bhante and Upasaka Blazer for sharing this discussion which has been helpful to me to get into the right mindest on the way to visiting my parents, helpong my father, which went without any conflicts this time.

 

Master Moritz,
i'm very happy it helped you!
Mudita 

Ven Johann,
possibly i'm missing something, but it is very important for me to understand so i have to ask further: how can a chat help in some cases?
After reflection i tought it is possible to repay a debt with parents, and looking for info i've found that the extinction is possible. But i feel it is not good to work with incomplete informations, or better, with informations which miss important points.
So it looks to me it was an error or it was for a purpose, i cannot find other reasons, also because i'm "expecting" perfection in answers or something similar.
May Ven Johann please clarify.
Thank you

 

Using delta-chat (via email) allows voice, Nyom. That's maybe better. (just install app, use enail account and write to samana.johann@sangham.net or create a group, maybe adding Nyom Moritz. as well, as groups are always better then just two.)

Ven. Johann,
thanks for your answer. Of course it can be of some help (ven if i prefer to have your words written for better understanding, multiple reading), but still i don't understand why that information was missing. It looks to me it was not a problem of chat/voice availability, the info was just missing.
Please help me to understand.
Thank you

 

Could Nyom repeat of what he now understands in regard of "giving care", better duties toward parents? (btw. talk is better for cross-intensivation and fill graps, but lets try, step by step)

[blazer]

Ven Johann,
as for now, i had the chance to reflect on the relationship and find some of my errors. I also reconsidered the role of parents and their burden. For so, there is a big debt.
Anyway the debt can be extinguished. For example, when a parent harrasses for half life, deprives of heritage, abuses, because of arrogance and stupidity, a big debt can eventually be extinguished, or there can even be a credit.
I gave help, but i'm still convinced i have no debt left, and more, i could even be in credit, expecially by having not taken strong countermeasures to defend myself properly. Actually i consider this could be the case, i have (had) a parent with a debt toward my person.

Why this question?
Thank you